First off, sorry if this has been done before, I couldn't find anything on it.
I'm trying to figure out what high end training map would be the best to use post 200. I know a majority of players use HoH, but it seems to me that Knight's Chamber 5 is theoretically better, and by a large amount. I'm not sure if this is really a question or not, but more so a collection of knowledge that I'm not entirely sure about just yet.
Maybe we can figure out what is statistically the best map post 200 under all conditions.
17 spawn points, 12 on the map when in the map alone.
Advanced Knight E: 124,671 (x12) = 1,496,052
Difference between the two maps 1,496,052 - 1,128,600 = 367,452 more experience per tick.
This doesn't take into consideration the additional exp from party play, exp cards, buffs etc. which would only increase the gap between the two maps. Additionally, if we receive exp penalties for being x number of levels above a monster, I guess KC5 would win again, slightly for some levels since Advance Knight 5 is the highest level out of all the mobs in these areas.
I've never trained at either of these places for very long, so I'm not exactly sure how their mechanics work, but do more mobs summon based on the amount of players in the map (Similar to LHC)?
Additionally, I'm unsure on how a Kanna's Kishin would effect the maps, would it work to the same degree that it does at LHC? I'm not sure if this would even matter since it seems as if KC5 has both more spawn points and spawn in general than HoH. Maybe @Stereo or @Thorr could shed some light on this issue? I know they've done work on this subject before.
Will update this part when we learn more on gMS's Twilight Perion
Spoiler
Between these two it clearly seems like KC5 is the winner on paper, but maybe the map layout has deterred people from using it? The map layout is pretty good none the less, just not as compact as HoH. I would assume that despite this it would still be better.
As for twilight Perion we don't know too much about the map, other than the fact that the map is huge and presumably has a higher number of spawn points than HoH and KC5. The exp per golem is 255,640 according to http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...RcVWqpXw#t=50s that video. EXP 20% per party play member.
2013-06-19, 01:22 PM
Thorr
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Kishin Shoukan would have no real effect in HoH. It maximizes KC5 spawn, though.
The preference is really about map layout for most. HOH is 3 plain flat plats. KC5 has the top two split. If you are one who can hit 2 plats (like a BaM with BKB) then you are likely to get more targets more frequently in HoH which makes up for the difference. The upper split platforms in KC5 mean you have to move around more and hit smaller groups (for the most part, unless you are using an Evan who can hit across the gap with ease). HoH would likely win out in general, simply because you are mobbing larger stacks most of the time.
If you are in a good party and everyone kills at roughly the same rate, I would think that KC5 would be the winner because the issue of being spread out is minimized.
2013-06-19, 01:30 PM
Bomber
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
There are 26 mobs in the mixed golem map. Assuming you can kill them all, it is 6,646,640 exp.
2013-06-19, 01:39 PM
SaptaZapta
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
What Thorr said.
HoH's layout is better.
The mobs at HoH only spawn on two platforms, so it's very easy to cycle. The bottom and the ladders leading from it to the first platform are safe, for leeches and mules. Kanna can stand on the bottom to recast Kishin conveniently and safely. HoH's only real drawback is the mix of enemies, some of which die before the others or respond differently to certain skills.
The safe spots in KC5 require more precision in positioning (I'm not even sure they're safe under all conditions). The split platforms make cycling difficult for classes that can't easily leap the gap, or can get knocked back and down, and also force you to fight smaller groupings of monsters.
I don't know the Perion maps yet.
I think that this is the sort of thing you just need to try for yourself. We have many, many hours to grind. Might as well do a couple of hours in each map, and see which one gives you the best exp with the least headache.
2013-06-19, 01:54 PM
ShinkuDragon
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by SaptaZapta
What Thorr said.
HoH's layout is better.
The mobs at HoH only spawn on two platforms, so it's very easy to cycle. The bottom and the ladders leading from it to the first platform are safe, for leeches and mules. Kanna can stand on the bottom to recast Kishin conveniently and safely. HoH's only real drawback is the mix of enemies, some of which die before the others or respond differently to certain skills.
The safe spots in KC5 require more precision in positioning (I'm not even sure they're safe under all conditions). The split platforms make cycling difficult for classes that can't easily leap the gap, or can get knocked back and down, and also force you to fight smaller groupings of monsters.
I don't know the Perion maps yet.
I think that this is the sort of thing you just need to try for yourself. We have many, many hours to grind. Might as well do a couple of hours in each map, and see which one gives you the best exp with the least headache.
i'd say HoH too, i tried finding a safe spot on KC5 ages ago, i just couldn't, their soul wave has enough vertical range up and down to hit you anywhere, and even with impale's long reach, i was hitting less mobs than in HoH.
maybe if i had perfect connection to OHKO everything with dark synthesis every 8 seconds, then maybe KC5 would be better.
2013-06-19, 02:01 PM
Thorr
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
I have always managed to get a safe spot in KC5. Lower right ladder. There is a sweet spot about 1 block from the top of it. I did a lot of solo training there with my Evan and 2-3 mules hanging there.
2013-06-19, 02:10 PM
777
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
from the math i done,i understood that you get 750k exp per golem at future perion using only full party and HS.
so i guess its better.:f3:
2013-06-19, 02:12 PM
Thorr
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 777
from the math i done,i understood that you get 750k exp per golem at future perion using only full party and HS.
so i guess its better.:f3:
I am curious on the source of the math since I don'y think we have the Exp value of the golems in Party Play.
Bomber's number above would put the Exp at 255k each. I just don't think we can depend on that value being accurate without seeing the extraction.
You also have to figure in the HP value of the golems. It may not be very quick to kill them. I would think they are in the 70m HP range.
2013-06-19, 02:22 PM
Bomber
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorr
I am curious on the source of the math since I don'y think we have the Exp value of the golems in Party Play.
Bomber's number above would put the Exp at 255k each. I just don't think we can depend on that value being accurate without seeing the extraction.
You also have to figure in the HP value of the golems. It may not be very quick to kill them. I would think they are in the 70m HP range.
I could give you all the values, but I'm not at my computer.
iirc, mixed are 89m hp.
2013-06-19, 02:23 PM
777
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorr
I am curious on the source of the math since I don'y think we have the Exp value of the golems in Party Play.
Bomber's number above would put the Exp at 255k each. I just don't think we can depend on that value being accurate without seeing the extraction.
You also have to figure in the HP value of the golems. It may not be very quick to kill them. I would think they are in the 70m HP range.
3rd grade math: 250k*2(the 100% party play from full pt)*1.5(HS)=750k
i rounded it to 250k from 255K for easier counting and because im lazy :excellent:
the HP can matter,but if the number of mobs bomber mentioned (26) any OP class that mobs (kaiser) would get around without a problem.
2013-06-19, 02:38 PM
Thorr
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by 777
3rd grade math: 250k*2(the 100% party play from full pt)*1.5(HS)=750k
i rounded it to 250k from 255K for easier counting and because im lazy :excellent:
the HP can matter,but if the number of mobs bomber mentioned (26) any OP class that mobs (kaiser) would get around without a problem.
Unfortunately your 3rd grade math is very wrong. you aren't accounting for the party split when you have a full party.
I'll skip the whole formula, but if 1 golem is 255000 Exp, then a full party of lvl 200 characters with 1HS and only 1 person killing gets the following -
Attacker - 127500 base with 165750 party bonus, total = 293,250
Leechers (5) - 51000 base with 66300 party bonus, total = 117,300
The 20% party play really sucks.
The same party in SH killing a Adv Knight E -
Attacker - 62336 base with 174541 party bonus, total = 236,877
leechers - 24934 base with 69815 bonus, total = 94,749
Given these totals, it's likely that KC5 would beat Golems because of kill rate. (Knight E has 30M HP vs the 89M of the golem)
20% party play is not enough to overcome the loss of our existing Exp Ratio (20% damage, 80% by level). YOu are actually better off do them Solo with HS. At least then you would get 382k per golem.
2013-06-19, 02:47 PM
777
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorr
Unfortunately your 3rd grade math is very wrong. you aren't accounting for the party split when you have a full party.
I'll skip the whole formula, but if 1 golem is 255000 Exp, then a full party of lvl 200 characters with 1HS and only 1 person killing gets the following -
Attacker - 127500 base with 165750 party bonus, total = 293,250
Leechers (5) - 51000 base with 66300 party bonus, total = 117,300
The 20% party play really sucks.
The same party in SH killing a Adv Knight E -
Attacker - 62336 base with 174541 party bonus, total = 236,877
leechers - 24934 base with 69815 bonus, total = 94,749
I added more numbers for demonstration... It's bleak with this silly Exp ratio. The attacker gets hosed. If everyone is attacking, it's even worse. If everyone damages evenly, each player only gets about 150k exp. At least with older Exp Ratios (like Chaos where it was 60% damage and 40% by level)a solo attacker would benefit from full party of mules.
The 20% party play is what kills it, though. It doesn't cover the losses from the split. The bonus needs to be about 35-40% to make it even with Solo killing. You have to hope that your kill rate makes it worthwhile.
EDIT - The BEST scenario for Exp per mob at golems is 1 attacker and 1 HS mule. (unless the attacker is a bishop and doesn't need one.) The attacker gets nearly the same total (290k) and the HS mule gets about 199k.
2013-06-19, 03:13 PM
Stereo
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorr
EDIT - The BEST scenario for Exp per mob at golems is 1 attacker and 1 HS mule. (unless the attacker is a bishop and doesn't need one.) The attacker gets nearly the same total (290k) and the HS mule gets about 199k.
Haha I got mentioned earlier in the thread so I'm here to mention that I solo train Future Henesys with the HS mule in a different map because the 2-player party bonus is smaller than the amount it splits off (iirc also makes the Mercedes bonus smaller). Most of my buffs are the same 3 minutes as HS so I just exit the map, hit my macro, hit the HS macro (with Adv. Bless, and sometimes MW10 depending on character), then go back in.
I haven't yet trained at HoH because for a while, the Knights you got in those first couple pure spawn maps were a lot easier to lure+kb, and didn't attack back.
Maybe I need to start leeching the Bishop again though, what's the min level to get into Twilight Perion?
2013-06-19, 03:18 PM
Thorr
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereo
Haha I got mentioned earlier in the thread so I'm here to mention that I solo train Future Henesys with the HS mule in a different map because the 2-player party bonus is smaller than the amount it splits off (iirc also makes the Mercedes bonus smaller). Most of my buffs are the same 3 minutes as HS so I just exit the map, hit my macro, hit the HS macro (with Adv. Bless, and sometimes MW10 depending on character), then go back in.
Yeah that's how I train most maps. If I do a LHC/SH party zone, I bring 2 mules so that it works out to no loss. (usually I am leeching one my mules in this scenario) Otherwise, I put my HS mule in the map next door and train solo. Conveniently, my bishop is also lvl 200 and has MW30, so he will be effective for Golem training if I choose to go there.
Of course, the other possible monkey in the wrench will be if we get the stupid Exp bonus changes from KMS. That will kill everything.
2013-06-19, 04:09 PM
SaptaZapta
Re: HoH vs KC5 (vs Twilight Perion)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorr
Yeah that's how I train most maps. If I do a LHC/SH party zone, I bring 2 mules so that it works out to no loss. (usually I am leeching one my mules in this scenario) Otherwise, I put my HS mule in the map next door and train solo. Conveniently, my bishop is also lvl 200 and has MW30, so he will be effective for Golem training if I choose to go there.
Of course, the other possible monkey in the wrench will be if we get the stupid Exp bonus changes from KMS. That will kill everything.
I try to use a priest or bishop too low-level to leech. If that's not possible, I use an expedition and swap the hs'er into my party and back out as needed. The next-door thing is a last resort.