Archmages - Forever useless at bosses?

[gucci]

I don't understand why new bosses and even new monsters continue to have elemental strengths while hardly any weaknesses. Archamges & paladins are already so weak at bosses, yet instead of finding a balance, they introduce bosses that have more elemental strengths. The new temple of time bosses and those at pink bean (whatever they are called) are very mage unfriendly. We already have bosses like Ergoth that is strong to all magic. What is their rationale behind all this? Are they trying to send a message to new magicians not to create anything but clerics? Will there ever be a balance?

[Afrobean]

I think you missed seeing Pink Bean's summons.

They require Magician's to be killed. I assume they will come in flocks and be quite the nuisance.

But this is how it should be. A Mage's worth should be created not necessarily by straight DPS, but by overall help. For a long time I've said Mage's skills should be changed, but doing it this way requires Mages (or at least, attacking Bishops) to be present without touching skills.

Paladins will be fine though, I'm sure. There are some elemental weaknesses in this boss area, and they'll have to stick where they strive in this case. It's a better alternative than Zakum where they're clearly outclassed. It's also potentially better than just making everything weak to Holy and letting Paladins trounce Heroes in DPS.

[gucci]

I think till the end of maple story, there will be no balance. The weapon classes have no such thing as elemental weakness, and can draw out the power of apples when needed. What's the point of elemental strength and weakness then?

[Sinnuendo]

You're probably also going to need a mage of some sort to kill the Ariel statue (assuming it's too high for other classes to reach). And with Bishops having to kill heal their party the whole time, Archmages will probably be wanted. :V

Plus, you can use your ultimates and hit all (or most) of the statues at once (plus the summon).

Off-topic, needs moar strikethrough code. D:

[Five Second Pose]

But is a loss of 7K MP (assuming you're ult-ing) all that favourable against such a formidable foe? And lag, I think that'll play a factor. >__>

[Kabanaw]

I believe that the PB is physical strong, meaning even those players strong enough to hit 99ks every time would only be doing 49ks, except for the i/ls and f/ps.

[Shippo the Fox]

But is a loss of 7K MP (assuming you're ult-ing) all that favourable against such a formidable foe? And lag, I think that'll play a factor. >__>

Thats only graphical lag which happens from maybe the first 3 casts (at most) of the ultimate. If your comp cant handle all those ultimates, no way it can handle bosses like this.

Also, Arch Mages are going to wanted, especially F/Ps now. Check the thread by Jones explaining some of the new enemy skills. One of the statues send players out of the map, and is Fire Weak. Gonna need F/Ps and Paladins for that.

[Kevin]

Well, even if bosses are given elemental weaknesses it doesn't stop other classes from being picked over Mages/Paladins, since even with the elemental advantage they won't outdamage the usual attackers by far if at all.

[Kabanaw]

Well, even if bosses are given elemental weaknesses it doesn't stop other classes from being picked over Mages/Paladins, since even with the elemental advantage they won't outdamage the usual attackers by far if at all.

I think the AMs would still pull through in DPS, and let's face it, when people go bossing, they care most about that even if it's by a little.

[gucci]

The problem is also with the balancing I think. In other versions AM have elemental weapons that deal 25% more damage, and i think onyx apples are rare or non existent in those versions. In GMS there are no elemental weapons and lots of apples.

[Five Second Pose]

The elemental weapons will make AMs more wanted at bosses, that's for sure.

[Afrobean]

The problem is also with the balancing I think. In other versions AM have elemental weapons that deal 25% more damage, and i think onyx apples are rare or non existent in those versions. In GMS there are no elemental weapons and lots of apples.
Those weapons truly aren't needed. Mages can top everyone unbuffed by hitting around 7~8 NEUTRAL enemies, even folks using Onyx Apples.

The problem is that bosses thus far have been driven by single target DPS only. Horntail is a full-fight with multipart, but it's simply not required, and it's too big I think to get the best out of it.

Pink Bean gives a purpose to Mages without giving them a means to match other classes in single target DPS. This is the solution: give them many enemies to knock out with their great AoE (where Mages MUST be used) and give them a method to strive in elemental advantage. Pink Bean seems to be the best balanced boss thus far, with only Paladins not getting a fair shot at things. But even Paladins are perfectly useful for a large portion of the fight, and beyond that, they're only a little behind Heroes.

ps Mage single target DPS on neutral isn't even as bad as you might think, not when compared to other classes unbuffed. No one is ever allowed to use their summons though, so they're only doing about 2/3 what they should be. But really, cutting elemental advantage leaves them with 2/3 of their best damage, and cutting their summon leaves them with 2/3 of THAT (assuming a boss would be weak to all elements, like, for fairness's sake, it should be). That's 4/9; that's less than half. Oh, and you say Mages are commonly disallowed from using their skill that has so far been called "broken and too strong", because of ignorant paranoia? That's great. Mages can touch 100k DPS EASY on their AoE ALONE just by hitting ~8 things at once (like uh i dunno zakum arms), and that's WITHOUT elemental advantage and without summons. Seriously, folks, Mages aren't as bad off as you think; they're discriminated against by ignorant players who won't give them a chance, and by the designers who have failed to give them a boss where they can be NECESSARY to a successful fight.

[gucci]

Despite all your opinions, these new monsters & bosses with their elementals were created because JMS/KMS/Others feel their AM are already balanaced. That is with their elemental weapons & lack of onyx apples for weapon classes. When GMS brings these new maps & monsters/bosses over, that's were the imbalance is, which is lack of elemental weapons here & an abundance of onyx apples. The problem is more with GMS, and i think we know they won't do anything about it. Even with the introduction of elemental weapons, 25% increase is nothing compared to the use of onyx apples, coupled with the elemental strengths of the new bosses

[Five Second Pose]

Can someone post the Elemental Staff advantages? Like, how much % it amplifies each element? I don't think the SW topic exists anymore.

[gucci]

Can someone post the Elemental Staff advantages? Like, how much % it amplifies each element? I don't think the SW topic exists anymore.

A thread was recently made in these forums :

http://www.southperry.net/forums/showthread.php?t=421

[Hazzy]

Well, even if bosses are given elemental weaknesses it doesn't stop other classes from being picked over Mages/Paladins, since even with the elemental advantage they won't outdamage the usual attackers by far if at all.

Arch Mages won't unless there's 15 monsters that need to be attacked at once, or if the other attackers are using apples. Seriously, who makes Magician buffs? 20 Magic is an OK bonus in 1st job! It just plain sucks after-words.

The designers are real morons. <_<
+20 Magic Attack =/= + 20 wAtk

[butterfλi]

An archmage should not rely on elemental weakness to be strong. An archmage is never useless at a boss (they're just not as useful as NL with apples and SE :P).

But where physical attackers dominate at every boss, magicians dominate the the training fields. There is no job that can train as fast as a magician using ultimates. People pay archmages to let them leech at newties all the time (at least in khaini) as high as 5mil per hour--more than enough to pay for pots. Some of them try to sweeten the deals with hb and hs mules.

[Afrobean]

Despite all your opinions, these new monsters & bosses with their elementals were created because JMS/KMS/Others feel their AM are already balanaced. That is with their elemental weapons & lack of onyx apples for weapon classes. When GMS brings these new maps & monsters/bosses over, that's were the imbalance is, which is lack of elemental weapons here & an abundance of onyx apples. The problem is more with GMS, and i think we know they won't do anything about it. Even with the introduction of elemental weapons, 25% increase is nothing compared to the use of onyx apples, coupled with the elemental strengths of the new bosses
There is a flaw in your plan here.

jMS created these weapons.

kMS created this boss.

kMS clearly was going to do something about it, but jMS wouldn't wait for them to act. Now jMS's actions are leaving Magicians with 25% more damage than kMS has designed the boss to be fair with.

In effect, the scale was imbalanced:
http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/5161/86643870yv3.png

jMS gave something to Mages to balance it:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/59/76805380ng5.png

Then, kMS, not having jMS's balance fix, fixed it in another way for them:
http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/59/76805380ng5.png

Eventually, kMS's fix will hit jMS, even when jMS was already rebalanced. This will leave things like this:
http://img172.imageshack.us/img172/9395/31662877pg7.png

The whole thing about Mages being behind will be knocked out by Time Temple. There will be high level elemental weakness, there will be a boss where Mages are needed. And that is WITHOUT a 25% boost in damage. Seriously folks, did you see what I said about DPS? You can hit 6 things and do 60k DPS. Easily. WITHOUT ELEMENTAL ADVANTAGE OR SUMMON. The only place a Mage lacks is in single target, but that doesn't even matter... with this boss, a Mage's single target will even look favorable compared to every other class's damage being cut while theirs is super effective. Seriously, please, run some numbers before you whine saying you're too weak. Mages are the strongest unbuffed in the entire game... you're not weak if you're the strongest.

[gucci]

Seriously, please, run some numbers before you whine saying you're too weak. Mages are the strongest unbuffed in the entire game... you're not weak if you're the strongest.

I admit I did not read your DPS theory and many of your long posts in here, sw or where ever, simply cos i do not have the patience to read essay like replies, but your diagrams were amusing. Whatever you claim, you should understand Maple is not only about training. Yes archmages deal a lot of damage when there are multiple monsters across different platforms not strong to their element. Yet you always neglect to take into consideration the amount of mana needed and how much mesos are spent every training session. And without a bishop or a hs mule/hb mule, training can be a nightmare. Ask any AM how much they spend at Skeles and newts and compare to how much you spend yourself.

Experience of playing an AM personally proves more than long essay-like counter replies and countless theories, esp by people of other classes. You ask us not to whine yet you are having the best of both worlds being a bishop, able to train the fastest cheaply, and go to bosses. If anyone is to tell us to stop whining, the last person should be you.

More and more AM i know are giving up to either make bishop or another class. If you claim AM is the best why is this happening? (actually i shouldn't ask... this will only encourage you write another long story, but w/e lol)

[MonkyMagic]

Going to bosses as an arch mage is despressing. When every other class gets at least some decent exp from zakum and horntail they can at least get some decent exp. As an arch mage you cant boss to get decent exp, like other classes do. You get thrown into the party that's not so needed.
For example with Horntail
A NL can get up to 40 ~ 50mil exp per run
A hero can get up to around 20mil exp per run
Bishops depends on party, IF they were in the NL party i think around 10mil per run.
Being a mage myself i only get around 2 ~ 3mil exp per run because we get thrown into the mage / left over party.

Having the elemental weapons might be able to let us do more single target DPS thus allowing us to be slightly more useful at bosses although we'll be nothing on par as to NL's and SE, we might be able to at least get a bit more exp per boss run IF and WHEN we decide we want to boss and making us slightly more useful.

At Afro: I know your going to come in saying we don't need these again and the ideas you've had in the past to improve mages are good ideas but not something that's going to ever happen. Elemental weapons are something that is already out and might actually happen in GMS.

[LeonSilvis]

to me it seems like, they will just add more bishops rather then arch mages :/. i mean Bishops can use genesis, which uses less mp and much stronger then blizzard and meteor. (or so i heard) they could have around 2-3 bishops, if its 2 one can focus on healing, while the other is spamming genesis, as for 3, if one used resurrection, then the other one can save it till its needed while he is still healing, and the 3rd one will be spamming genesis.

although, if the bosses are in every corner, then someone might have 2 bishops due to one healing one side, and the other healing the other side or so... Sure the eagle statues are weak to ice/fire, but doesn't bowmaster and marksman can deal with those also? :/? i mean they have phoenix and freezer.

to me, i still think that in this boss, arch mages will still dont have a spotlight in this battle :f7:

[Kabanaw]

to me it seems like, they will just add more bishops rather then arch mages :/. i mean Bishops can use genesis, which uses less mp and much stronger then blizzard and meteor. (or so i heard) they could have around 2-3 bishops, if its 2 one can focus on healing, while the other is spamming genesis, as for 3, if one used resurrection, then the other one can save it till its needed while he is still healing, and the 3rd one will be spamming genesis.

although, if the bosses are in every corner, then someone might have 2 bishops due to one healing one side, and the other healing the other side or so... Sure the eagle statues are weak to ice/fire, but doesn't bowmaster and marksman can deal with those also? :/? i mean they have phoenix and freezer.

to me, i still think that in this boss, arch mages will still dont have a spotlight in this battle :f7:

Hmm. Well, With amp, Genesis is 100 base att less than meteo/blizzard. And, the PB and the Arial statue, the two strongest parts, are strong/immune to holy. Infact, the only people that don't get their damage cut in half on the PB is AMs using lightning and poison. So, AMs using blizzard/meteo would be much better dmg/s than genesis, so bringing bishops as atters instead of AMs would be a horrible, horrible idea.