Let's Temporarily

[mEanEst]

Okay, so let's say that Nexon fixes the Elemental Boosts for Holy (Bishops) for the Elemental Staves/Wands (Please don't argue about this, we're only temporarily assuming. . .). That would leave them stranded with the Maple Weapon, Level 64. That only leaves the Timeless Wand and Staff left. If this happens, will Normal-Luk and Low-Luk come back into the Bishop class?

[Takebacker]

I don't remember the timeless weapons being better than luckless shine wand users.

[Hazzy]

I don't remember any LUK weapon being better than luckless shine wand users.

Fixed. :[

Make some mobs that Dispel with a chance of failure related to you wDef. If mages want to train there, get good at rebuffing, or get LUK for DEF. xP

[Takebacker]

Fixed. :[

Make some mobs that Dispel with a chance of failure related to you wDef. If mages want to train there, get good at rebuffing, or get LUK for DEF. xP

Luck gives defense? O_O

[Hazzy]

Luck gives defense? O_O

Basic Mage Gear does. :f6:
Basic Mage Gear requires Luk.

[Atruya]

Avoid helps a lot in such situations.

[Dusk]

Doomsday Staff > Maple Shine Wand.

Well, at least at level 200, when you'd have 23 base luk anyway...I'm pretty sure Doomsday Staff > Maple Shine Wand at lower levels, too, though...just need to do some calculations.

[Bribery]

I did the calculations at level 120. I left out equips that equally benefit both sides including gloves (Flamekeeper Cordon).

Matk score = ( matk - ( level * 5 + 18 ) )

Hat: [Zakum Helmet] 15 Int/15 Luk
Overall: [Green Starlight] 4 Int/1 Luk
Shoes: [Yellow Snowshoes] 5 Int
Pendant: [Horntail Pendant] 22 Int/22 Luk
Weapon: [Shine Wand/Wisdom Staff] 80 matk/1 Int

Matk Score for Lukless: 127

Hat: [Zakum Helmet] 15 Int/15 Luk
Overall: [Dark Requiem] 5 Int/2 Luk
Shoes: [Lapiz Sandals] 8 Stats
Pendant: [Horntail Pendant] 22 Int/22 Luk
Weapon: [Doomsday Staff] 118 Matk

Matk Score for Luk: 127


Unless I made a mistake, both sides are equal on paper. However, it's easier and cheaper to scroll Lukless equipment since Shine Wands are still cheap and overalls are readily available from NPCs.

[Kevo]

Doomsday Staff > Maple Shine Wand.

Well, at least at level 200, when you'd have 23 base luk anyway...I'm pretty sure Doomsday Staff > Maple Shine Wand at lower levels, too, though...just need to do some calculations.

If we are just talking about wands, and no other equipments... Take an average scrolled Maple Shine was 100 magic which are super cheap (there are far stronger ones, 130+), there is no luck requirement so you have a 100 magic gain. A Doomsday has a 80 Luck Requirement, so you'd need a a 180 magic Doomsday for an equal magic gain. 180 magic is really godly and I don't even think that is achievable...

Also, a Maple Shine Wand gives more HP than a Doomsday Staff as well as MP.

An 130 Elemental Wand is even better :) <33333 My Fire Wand

[Dusk]

If we are just talking about wands, and no other equipments... Take an average scrolled Maple Shine was 100 magic which are super cheap (there are far stronger ones, 130+), there is no luck requirement so you have a 100 magic gain. A Doomsday has a 80 Luck Requirement, so you'd need a a 180 magic Doomsday for an equal magic gain. 180 magic is really godly and I don't even think that is achievable...

Also, a Maple Shine Wand gives more HP than a Doomsday Staff as well as MP.

An 130 Elemental Wand is even better :) <33333 My Fire Wand

That's not how it works. For each point in LUK the Maple Shine user has, their magic advantage drops by 1.

- 4 base LUK
- ZHelm
- HT Pendant / Deputy Star

That's 19 less magic needed for the Doomsday right there (161 total), 41 less with a HT Pendant. With a HT Pendant the Doomsday user only needs 139 magic. Then you have to account for the Doomsday user probably having a better overall, glove, and shoes, since they can actually equip gear that gives them base stats.

Yeah, Elemental wands do own the hell out of the Doomsday Staff, though. We're just talking about Bishops, here.

[Stereo]

since they can actually equip gear that gives them base stats.

+_+

If you equip the gear in this order...
4 luk base
19 luk - Zak Helm [15 int]
41 luk - Horntail Pendant [22 int]
42 luk - Starlight [4 int]
43 luk - Black Salt Shoes [1 int]
43 luk - Dark Arten [3 int] -> or Flamekeeper Cordons if you're a rich pineapple

Total equipped from gear is 8 int.
39 luk base
54 luk - Zakum Helm [15 int]
76 luk - Horntail [22 int]
78 luk - Requiem [5 int]
79 luk - Dark Lorin [4 int] -> again, Flamekeeper Cordons
80 luk - Gold Lapiz Sandals [3 int 1 matk]
80 luk - Doomsday Staff

The lukless has 8 int from gear, low luk has 13 int. Flamekeepers decrease that gap by one. (13 vs. 17)

So for 35 luk (and int lost), you gained 42-43 int/matk on the Doomsday Staff over a Shine Wand. I guess that's worth it if you can get similarly scrolled lv.70 mage gear to lv.35-40.

[Chompy]

I did the calculations at level 120. I left out equips that equally benefit both sides including gloves (Flamekeeper Cordon).

Matk score = ( matk - ( level * 5 + 18 ) )

Hat: [Zakum Helmet] 15 Int/15 Luk
Overall: [Green Starlight] 4 Int/1 Luk
Shoes: [Yellow Snowshoes] 5 Int
Pendant: [Horntail Pendant] 22 Int/22 Luk
Weapon: [Shine Wand/Wisdom Staff] 80 matk/1 Int

Matk Score for Lukless: 127

Hat: [Zakum Helmet] 15 Int/15 Luk
Overall: [Dark Requiem] 5 Int/2 Luk
Shoes: [Lapiz Sandals] 8 Stats
Pendant: [Horntail Pendant] 22 Int/22 Luk
Weapon: [Doomsday Staff] 118 Matk

Matk Score for Luk: 127


Unless I made a mistake, both sides are equal on paper. However, it's easier and cheaper to scroll Lukless equipment since Shine Wands are still cheap and overalls are readily available from NPCs.
I think the maker skill will change alot of things in favor of LUK...
even if it is a year away...

[Shidoshi]

+_+

If you equip the gear in this order...
4 luk base
19 luk - Zak Helm [15 int]
41 luk - Horntail Pendant [22 int]
42 luk - Starlight [4 int]
43 luk - Black Salt Shoes [1 int]
43 luk - Dark Arten [3 int] -> or Flamekeeper Cordons if you're a rich pineapple

Total equipped from gear is 8 int.
39 luk base
54 luk - Zakum Helm [15 int]
76 luk - Horntail [22 int]
78 luk - Requiem [5 int]
79 luk - Dark Lorin [4 int] -> again, Flamekeeper Cordons
80 luk - Gold Lapiz Sandals [3 int 1 matk]
80 luk - Doomsday Staff

The lukless has 8 int from gear, low luk has 13 int. Flamekeepers decrease that gap by one. (13 vs. 17)

So for 35 luk (and int lost), you gained 42-43 int/matk on the Doomsday Staff over a Shine Wand. I guess that's worth it if you can get similarly scrolled lv.70 mage gear to lv.35-40.

for the lukless, aren't the yellow snow shoes better?

[Dusk]

I think the maker skill will change alot of things in favor of LUK...
even if it is a year away...

The maker skill is good news for every build for every class that relies on more than one stat. Statless classes have the most to lose.

[Stereo]

for the lukless, aren't the yellow snow shoes better?

I didn't include above average gears either :/ I suppose that's true, but the 3 int 1 luk 1 matk Sandal could rise to 8 stats, so it's still 3 ahead.

[Russt]

+_+

If you equip the gear in this order...
4 luk base
19 luk - Zak Helm [15 int]
41 luk - Horntail Pendant [22 int]
42 luk - Starlight [4 int]
43 luk - Black Salt Shoes [1 int]
43 luk - Dark Arten [3 int] -> or Flamekeeper Cordons if you're a rich pineapple

Total equipped from gear is 8 int.
39 luk base
54 luk - Zakum Helm [15 int]
76 luk - Horntail [22 int]
78 luk - Requiem [5 int]
79 luk - Dark Lorin [4 int] -> again, Flamekeeper Cordons
80 luk - Gold Lapiz Sandals [3 int 1 matk]
80 luk - Doomsday Staff

The lukless has 8 int from gear, low luk has 13 int. Flamekeepers decrease that gap by one. (13 vs. 17)

So for 35 luk (and int lost), you gained 42-43 int/matk on the Doomsday Staff over a Shine Wand. I guess that's worth it if you can get similarly scrolled lv.70 mage gear to lv.35-40.
And a similarly scrolled Doomsday Staff. Don't count on it.

Balance is just pomegranatety in this game. The fact that a Cromi and a Dragon Staff are functionally equal, not counting equips... >_>

[Stereo]

I think my favourite way would be to introduce that thing people talked about, but never happened...


gear defense based on item level.

Or just make it so weapon m.atk is multiplied with int, like every other class's formula.

[Russt]

Heh I was thinking of ways to make LUK worthwhile today. I came up with the idea of having full set bonuses on normal mage wear. Put on a full level 78/80 set, for example (set = hat + overall + glove + shoe... yes hat too, zhelm lovers) and depending on which color the overall is, you'd get like +10% fire/poison damage and partial resistance. Or +10% holy damage and general magic resistance. So on and so forth.

[Takebacker]

Heh I was thinking of ways to make LUK worthwhile today. I came up with the idea of having full set bonuses on normal mage wear. Put on a full level 78/80 set, for example (set = hat + overall + glove + shoe... yes hat too, zhelm lovers) and depending on which color the overall is, you'd get like +10% fire/poison damage and partial resistance. Or +10% holy damage and general magic resistance. So on and so forth.

Lol. Might as well make zhelms usable by every class except mages while you're at it, since there would be no point anyway.

Would that even make it balanced? Long as the 50- sets don't give bonuses i guess. Why partial resistance anyway? Might as well make it full.

[Russt]

Lol. Might as well make zhelms usable by every class except mages while you're at it, since there would be no point anyway.

Would that even make it balanced? Long as the 50- sets don't give bonuses i guess. Why partial resistance anyway? Might as well make it full.
Thematic-ness. Fire/poison element damage goes with fire/poison resistance. Even if it's useless.

[Takebacker]

Thematic-ness. Fire/poison element damage goes with fire/poison resistance. Even if it's useless.

It should make you take more damage if you wear the wrong color in that case.

F/P + blue set = - resistance
F/P + ...whatever set is their color = + resistance

Would make it so AMs don't capitalize on getting resistance to ice or lightining and vice versa.

[Russt]

It should make you take more damage if you wear the wrong color in that case.

F/P + blue set = - resistance
F/P + ...whatever set is their color = + resistance

Would make it so AMs don't capitalize on getting resistance to ice or lightining and vice versa.
Not enough monsters deal elemental damage for it to really matter.

[Takebacker]

Not enough monsters deal elemental damage for it to really matter.

True, but that somewhat defeats the point of giving + elemental resistance in the first place anyway.

[Russt]

The two elemental pairs would be mainly for damage dealing. If you really wanted defense, you'd get the holy/resist set.

On top of that I'd rebalance the damage formula so that 1 magic attack is worth more than 1 INT.
(1 INT = 0.9 magic, 1 MATK = 1.5?)

[Takebacker]

The two elemental pairs would be mainly for damage dealing. If you really wanted defense, you'd get the holy/resist set.

On top of that I'd rebalance the damage formula so that 1 magic attack is worth more than 1 INT.
(1 INT = 0.9 magic, 1 MATK = 1.5?)

I say .7 or .8ish. It doesn't really sound like .1 reduction per point would make much difference, but a bigger reduction would make more space between m.att gain and int gain.

Anyway, my own suggestion, instead of overhauling the entire system (which would pineapple over mages around all versions) just make a weapon set (or just a weapon) that makes the lost int worth it in equal m.att gain. Level 130 staff with 120 req and a base m.att of 260 i guess? Equality, as far as i see. Might need to make the req higher, since it's really pretty easy to go low luck and the extra int would give more benefits still.

[Dusk]

1 INT was worth 0.8 Magic back in early Beta. That was changed to 1.0. There used to be a significant advantage to using higher level weapons. There still can be, they just need to make Magic Attack worth more than 1 Magic.

[Russt]

Anyway, my own suggestion, instead of overhauling the entire system (which would pineapple over mages around all versions) just make a weapon set (or just a weapon) that makes the lost int worth it in equal m.att gain. Level 130 staff with 120 req and a base m.att of 260 i guess? Equality, as far as i see. Might need to make the req higher, since it's really pretty easy to go low luck and the extra int would give more benefits still.
Which would screw over anyone and everyone who spent money on any godly existing weapon, because this 260 matk staff leaves all of them in the dust.

Then again that's a lot like the elemental weapons too...

[Takebacker]

Which would screw over anyone and everyone who spent money on any godly existing weapon, because this 260 matk staff leaves all of them in the dust.

Then again that's a lot like pretty much every major economic shift this game has ever brought us...

Fixed. :chin:

[dpeterlin]

Level 130 staff with 120 req and a base m.att of 260 i guess? Equality, as far as i see. Might need to make the req higher, since it's really pretty easy to go low luck and the extra int would give more benefits still.


....and make it come from gachapon


though i do think it is a good idea --- no way would everyone have access to it though -- have it be a present from your grendel once you reach lvl130 -- untradeable -- no way nexon would allow that though

lets just make it real simple and add 1mattk for every luk required for every staff/wand -- completely offsets the advantages of going lukless

[The Ice Dude]

If bishop can't use elemental wand, what I think will happen, is those people who want to have the best magic attack score and are don't care about the cost, those people will go back to lukmage, while the other bishop that will be satisfy with their 1-2hit ko at skele, will just stick with a maple shine wand, as it will be much cheaper and the 40 matk lost won't really hurt them in training.

Basicly you will just see more very strong bishop low luk, then you see at the moment.

Also take in account, that a certain amount of bishop reset alot of ap from luk, just to get the most out of their elemental wand, so spending back those ap. Let say you use 40 ap reset to be lukless, so 120$ approx, I'm pretty sure you would hesitate before making that 120$ goes to waste by adding back those 40 luk.

On other side, the new mage that went regular luk, will tend less to go lukless once they understand what is lowluk/lukless, because they have a chance a doomsday and back before e-wand, doomsday staff was a big motivation for many bishop.

It sound like thing would go back as what they were, for the new people getting in 4th job, but for the other, most will prob stick lukless just because converting again won't seem to wroth it anymore.