Stun Mastery: multiplicative?

[Russt]

I was reading this (http://www.southperry.net/forums/showpost.php?p=115143&postcount=30) and something struck me as weird.

44k SE crits, 15k noncrits. 44/15 = 2.9333...

With Barrage+SE, assuming stun mastery is additive like archer/sin crit, it'd be (230+140+60)% = 430% on crits. 430%/230% = 1.8696...

Something didn't add up here... so I tried taking the crit out in front as a multiplier. (100+140+60)% = 300% crits multiplied with the original damage. 300% = well, 3.

Is this the case, then? Does SM do a *1.6 instead of +60% like all other criticals?

[Evilince]

From what I have seen, stun mastery on it's own doesn't even do an extra 60% damage when maxed.

[JoeTang]

I've never seen any intensive data about Stun Criticals, but I had always assumed it was +160% because otherwise they would be extremely weak.

[Russt]

^ oh, in that case it would be 530%/230% = 2.3043...

Not as close as 3... dunno.

[JoeTang]

What level is TLeviathan's Barrage that he's hitting 15ks on?

[Russt]

Ooh, good point. I completely overlooked that >_>

[Evilince]

Barrage is weird, 15k at lvl 1 is not uncommon. It's supposed to be 6* 94% damage, but its more like 4 * 94% + 1 * 200% + 1 * 300%. And no, it's not + 160% damage, even without crit we are pretty strong.

[JoeTang]

He's talking about the final hit of Barrage, anyways, which has quadruple the power.
Thusly, if it were maxed, it would be something along the lines of
(230 * 4 + 140 + 60) vs (230 + 140 + 60) * 4 vs
(Barrage_Damage% * 4 + SE% + SM%) vs (Barrage_Damage% + SE% + SM%) * 4

Are multipliers not considered after the addition of SE?
(Inferno% + SE%) * Advantage?
(Power_Strike% + SE%) * Holy_Charge% * Advantage?

[Russt]

Okay, Fiel tested it, and this is what we concluded:

- It's definitely additive.
- Without SE, it adds +60% when stunned.
- With SE, it adds +160% on top of the SE boost when stunned. So it totals +300%, not +200% as you'd expect.

The discrepancy probably has to do with unmaxed Barrage when I assumed it was maxed.

@ Evilince
Yeah. Barrage doubles its damage on the 5th hit and doubles again on the 6th.

@ JT
I believe it was (Base * Advantage) + (Inferno% + SE%)

[JoeTang]

God damn, another crappy condition code.

[TLeviathan]

I thought I mentioned why it has unusual damage...

Barrage is supposedly 6*94% at lv1, but it isn't
It's 4 hits of 94%
1 hit of 94%*2
1 hit of 94%*4

That is from Fiel's formula, referenced in the same thread by Takebacker.

Crit, when applied, should go with the 94%

(94%+60%)*1 for the first 4
(94%+60%)*2 for the 5th hit
(94%+60%)*4 for the last

With SE, I thought it would be
(94%+60%+140%)*1 for first 4
(94%+60%+140%)*2 for the 5th
(94%+60%+140%)*4 for the final

The last hit should be 294%*4, so almost 1,200% of my range. I'd have to check my actual damage range again to see if this works (I don't think it's high enough, actually) but it's the closest I can guess so far. The max crit I had without SE was also 22k, the 16k is done hastily. So, SE goes from 22k to 54k, both were energy charged. 32,000/560 = ~6k max range... so yea... my formula isn't quite high enough even.

Your last few posts weren't up when I posted... and I don't know if your formula is right either. With SE, I'd be gaining 100% on the new stun mastery %, and 140% on se. This yields an extra 240%*4 to make up the 32k difference... 32,000/960 is more like a 3.3k range, whereas my max was about 4k.

[JoeTang]

Riight, riight, I remember now. Was too lazy to look up my source to double check.

[Dusk]

Nexon really wanted to make Buc formulas as complicated as possible <_<

So they do 75% chance of +300% damage per hit with max SE? wtp.

At least it makes up for their relatively low damage at bosses.

[Worthyness]

OMG at damage percentage *looks at measly 100%* Dx

well at least i have a boss worthy class to look forward to 0_o
still <3 SE

[JoeTang]

Nexon really wanted to make Buc formulas as complicated as possible <_<

So they do 75% chance of +300% damage per hit with max SE? wtp.

At least it makes up for their relatively low damage at bosses.

No it doesn't because bosses can't be stunned.

[TLeviathan]

Assuming my max range was 4k (it was close) and I hit my maxes at 22k and 54k, the difference in critical % is 800... meaning the total crit on the skill is roughly 1040%. That means 260% *4. Assuming SE is still +140%, stun mastery somehow doubles. I'm going to go play around with just barrage + se and see what I get.

[Russt]

@ TLeviathan

According to what I have, you should be maxing at about 17k noncrit, 28k crit without SE, and 72k crit with SE.

-shrug-

Here's his results

110% double upper, 1000~1000 damage range
Stun crit, no SE: 1700 1700
With SE: 4100 4100

88% backspin, 1000~1000 damage range
With SE: 3880 3880

180% barrage, 100~100 damage range
Stun crit, no SE: 241 241 241 241 482 964
With SE: 481 481 481 481 962 1925
(Ignore the ones digit on every number, the damage range was slightly off of exactly 100.)

[TLeviathan]

Misread, will re-test. I'll go to slimes for negligible def.

Lv2 barrage now, 98%*4 for the last hit, but still doing slightly less than 15k to slimes no-crit. 3840 max range in this test, 3840*(.98)*4 gives 15052, so that part alone is close. Even if I had my charged range and lv1 barrage again, it's still 15k (about 20 damage less in theory than my current setup)... I don't see the 17k anywhere. The most damage I've ever seen myself do is low 60k's, and that includes MW19 and lv2 barrage. Not close to 72k...

[Dusk]

No it doesn't because bosses can't be stunned.

I meant that having high damage with the stuns when training makes up for their mediocreness at bosses.

[Russt]

Misread, will re-test. I'll go to slimes for negligible def.

Lv2 barrage now, 98%*4 for the last hit, but still doing slightly less than 15k to slimes no-crit. 3840 max range in this test, 3840*(.98)*4 gives 15052, so that part alone is close. Even if I had my charged range and lv1 barrage again, it's still 15k (about 20 damage less in theory than my current setup)... I don't see the 17k anywhere. The most damage I've ever seen myself do is low 60k's, and that includes MW19 and lv2 barrage. Not close to 72k...
Well, I was using an approximation for your base range, which seems to have been off :f3:

You should be doing 15k without crit, 24k with crit, and 61k with SE. That fit better?

[TLeviathan]

Well, I was using an approximation for your base range, which seems to have been off :f3:

You should be doing 15k without crit, 24k with crit, and 61k with SE. That fit better?


Assumed SM only crit = (98%+60%)*4 * 3840 = 24268 theoretical, 23.7k observed.
Assumed 300% SM + SE crit = (98%+160%+140%)*4*3840 = 61132 theoretical, 56759 observed.
Empirical formula from my 54k/22k hits = (98%+260%)*4*3840 = 54989 theoretical, 56759 observed.

Looks like the current damage max is 375-380%*4, with SE + SM.

[Russt]

Well it's proportional, that's what matters.

[TLeviathan]

Ignore this, going to rework what was here.

[Devil]

Nexon really wanted to make Buc formulas as complicated as possible <_<

So they do 75% chance of +300% damage per hit with max SE? wtp.

At least it makes up for their relatively low damage at bosses.Low damage at bosses? 6 Buc party's outdamage EVERY single party at Horntail, including 6 Hero or 1Bish/1HBmule/1SEmule/3NL party's... That includes the 4 minutes out of 20 minutes when they're forced to use the Barrage/DU combo.

The critical just speeds up the proces while training on normal monsters...

Anyway, so SE+SM adds 140% + 160% to normal damage at a 75% chance? lol...

So it wouldn't be that uncommon to have a 8 critical Demolition (Stun with lvl 1 snatch) of ((400%+300%)*8)= 5600% damage per Demolition?

If a lvl 150 Buc would have a range of 3000~5000, this would do: 168.000~280.000 dmg per Demolition... hmmmm ok....? :P

[Kaasoljoyyx]

Low damage at bosses? 6 Buc party's outdamage EVERY single party at Horntail, including 6 Hero or 1Bish/1HBmule/1SEmule/3NL party's... That includes the 4 minutes out of 20 minutes when they're forced to use the Barrage/DU combo.


Your argument is flawed as you're not creating equal situations for the parties.

And no, 6 buc party is not highest dps.

[Devil]

Your argument is flawed as you're not creating equal situations for the parties.

And no, 6 buc party is not highest dps.Yes it is at Horntail, come back when you've read the DPM thread... ty :)

[Kaasoljoyyx]

Again, it's not equal situation -_-

From that logic, i can say archmages outdamage everyone at training because we hit all the monsters at once, while other classes waste time getting to the next monster.

Also funny how you give a bish to the NL party and not one to bucanneers to increase their dps.

You gotta create "as equal situations" as possible. Otherwise everything is just situational.

[Dusk]

Yes it is at Horntail, come back when you've read the DPM thread... ty :)

No, it's not. Your thread is a vast approximation, ignores minimum damage (a huge deal, as I've stated multiple times), and uses experimental numbers for Demolition attack speed (faster than any other approximation I've seen, btw). Using an estimated 1.9s attack speed, I'm getting Bucs to come up around just as powerful as BMs and Heroes ...when Transformed. The actual speed could be slower or slightly faster.

Assuming 1.9s for Demolition is not completely off, BMs, NLs with SE, Corsairs and Heroes all surpass Buccaneers by far at Horntail. Dark Knights are competitive in terms of DPS at other locations where Berserk can be used. NLs without SE and Marksmen (more so when they get 199k Snipe, but even now) are also competitive with Buccaneers.

On the other hand, Buccaneers outdamage every other class at single-target damage with SE when monsters are stunnable. Stunning is that important.

[Devil]

Again, it's not equal situation -_-

From that logic, i can say archmages outdamage everyone at training because we hit all the monsters at once, while other classes waste time getting to the next monster.

Also funny how you give a bish to the NL party and not one to bucanneers to increase their dps.

You gotta create "as equal situations" as possible. Otherwise everything is just situational.1. Offcourse I'm talking about single target bossing here, when I'm talking about horntail... So no AoE damage here... Mages die in 1 hit at HT when they use their Ultimates

2. Find me a 1xDK/1xBM/4xNL party that can survive HT without being healed 100% of the time without the DK dieing... That party is so dependant on HB... If the DK dies or disconnects, BAM! Whole party dies instantly... It's just a no go area...


No, it's not. Your thread is a vast approximation, ignores minimum damage (a huge deal, as I've stated multiple times), and uses experimental numbers for Demolition attack speed (faster than any other approximation I've seen, btw). Using an estimated 1.9s attack speed, I'm getting Bucs to come up around just as powerful as BMs and Heroes ...when Transformed. The actual speed could be slower or slightly faster.

Assuming 1.9s for Demolition is not completely off, BMs, NLs with SE, Corsairs and Heroes all surpass Buccaneers by far at Horntail. Dark Knights are competitive in terms of DPS at other locations where Berserk can be used. NLs without SE and Marksmen (more so when they get 199k Snipe, but even now) are also competitive with Buccaneers.

On the other hand, Buccaneers outdamage every other class at single-target damage with SE when monsters are stunnable. Stunning is that important.1. Well I used several video's of Buc's with Wind Booster on, and it's pretty accurace, so sow me a video that proves me wrong then....

2. Corsairs at HT? The cooldown of Battleship is terrible.... :(
3. Dark Knights and Bereserk at HT? Huh? (Yes I was talking about HT, in case you hadn't noticed, please read more carefully).
4. Buccanneers -DO- outdamage the traditional party at HT, same as Luchbox Hero's outdamage the traditional party system, people just don't realize that... or don't want to leave their NL fanboy fantasy behind...
5. The problem with MM increased snipe is called Onyx Apples... The damage is stuck at 199k without or with onyx apples... Only at lower (non onyx apple) attack ranges MM's can keep up with BM's, but when Onyx Apples come into the situation, BM's overpower MM's by FAR, and it becomes even more the higher the level they (both) get. Unless Nexon decides to put the damage cap at 500k offcourse...

6. Yes, Stun Mastery + Buccaneers overpower everyone, I'll add THAT to the DPM thread when I have time, but a rough estimate: Demolition's power will almost double...

[Kaasoljoyyx]

1. Offcourse I'm talking about single target bossing here, when I'm talking about horntail... So no AoE damage here... Mages die in 1 hit at HT when they use their Ultimates


I stopped reading at the bold because obviously from that statement, you have never been to a HT run, and probably your research on it is severely lacking.

[Sinnuendo]

1. Well I used several video's of Buc's with Wind Booster on, and it's pretty accurace, so sow me a video that proves me wrong then....

Videos aren't accurate sources of information unless you know:

1. What level the Buc's attacks are
2. What level their buffs are and what their buffs add (including items)
3. The Buc's equips, stats, and damage range

2. Corsairs at HT? The cooldown of Battleship is terrible.... :(

http://www.southperry.net/forums/showpost.php?p=88953&postcount=451 <- This kills your argument; Corsairs would be on their ship most of the time, and hopefully they also know how to demount.

3. Dark Knights and Bereserk at HT? Huh? (Yes I was talking about HT, in case you hadn't noticed, please read more carefully).

It's possible.

4. Buccanneers -DO- outdamage the traditional party at HT, same as Luchbox Hero's outdamage the traditional party system, people just don't realize that... or don't want to leave their NL fanboy fantasy behind...

If HT was able to be STUNNED, then they would, but at the moment, we don't know if they do. Your calculations are extremely inaccurate, and therefore can't be considered until you factor in minimum and average damage.

5. The problem with MM increased snipe is called Onyx Apples... The damage is stuck at 199k without or with onyx apples... Only at lower (non onyx apple) attack ranges MM's can keep up with BM's, but when Onyx Apples come into the situation, BM's overpower MM's by FAR, and it becomes even more the higher the level they (both) get. Unless Nexon decides to put the damage cap at 500k offcourse...

Onyx Apples increase Strafe's power too.

6. Yes, Stun Mastery + Buccaneers overpower everyone, I'll add THAT to the DPM thread when I have time, but a rough estimate: Demolition's power will almost double...

Again, your calcs are inaccurate due to a lack of min and average damage. Even if they do overpower all other classes in NORMAL TRAINING, this will not be the case when bossing.

Comments in bold.

[Winry]

@Devil

I can find you 1 BM and 5 NLs on Bera that can HT without a dk or bishop :f2:
I can also find quite a few DrKs who could Zerk HT.
We also have Bishops and I/L AM's who do mobbing at HT with thier ultimates and I don't see them dying.

EDIT: Alot of HT is making use of what you have, not "what's better" As of now, you wont find 6 17x Buc's to solo HT, and I'm left to wonder how your calculations work with 1 bishop in your party (Yes I'm aware of your timeleap+st strategy). Don't forget that not only are bishops there to heal, they are there to resurrect, holy symbol, dispel, and bless you.

EDIT: OBBY HERE
- 1x Bowmaster + 5x NightLord (Not Possible at Horntail - 1-Hit Death) I say possible.
-- 112.686% + 5x 171.535% = 970.361%
- 6x Viper (All with 8k+ HP - Pet auto-pot is your friend) (Demolition+Barrage+DU Combo) <- owhat
-- 6x 113.263% = 679.580%
- Bishop + DarkKnight + BowMaster + 3x NightLord (Yay for HB Slave...) <- wait wait, so your saying your way is a whole 8% better, WOW. O_O.
-- X + 43.910% + 112.686% + 3x 171.535% = 671.201%

[Takebacker]

1. Offcourse I'm talking about single target bossing here, when I'm talking about horntail... So no AoE damage here... Mages die in 1 hit at HT when they use their Ultimates

2. Find me a 1xDK/1xBM/4xNL party that can survive HT without being healed 100% of the time without the DK dieing... That party is so dependant on HB... If the DK dies or disconnects, BAM! Whole party dies instantly... It's just a no go area...

1. Well I used several video's of Buc's with Wind Booster on, and it's pretty accurace, so sow me a video that proves me wrong then....

2. Corsairs at HT? The cooldown of Battleship is terrible.... :(
3. Dark Knights and Bereserk at HT? Huh? (Yes I was talking about HT, in case you hadn't noticed, please read more carefully).
4. Buccanneers -DO- outdamage the traditional party at HT, same as Luchbox Hero's outdamage the traditional party system, people just don't realize that... or don't want to leave their NL fanboy fantasy behind...
5. The problem with MM increased snipe is called Onyx Apples... The damage is stuck at 199k without or with onyx apples... Only at lower (non onyx apple) attack ranges MM's can keep up with BM's, but when Onyx Apples come into the situation, BM's overpower MM's by FAR, and it becomes even more the higher the level they (both) get. Unless Nexon decides to put the damage cap at 500k offcourse...

6. Yes, Stun Mastery + Buccaneers overpower everyone, I'll add THAT to the DPM thread when I have time, but a rough estimate: Demolition's power will almost double...


Sorry dude, but you're overstepping your boundaries with first hand experience.

The only two thing i'm going to comment on is the following though:


2. Corsairs at HT? The cooldown of Battleship is terrible.... :(

90 seconds is terrible? 90 seconds is NOTHING. With 90 seconds and a high enough level corsair, it becomes much harder to break the ship. When it does, there's the possible time leap available. If time leap isn't available, wait 90 seconds.


1. Well I used several video's of Buc's with Wind Booster on, and it's pretty accurace, so sow me a video that proves me wrong then....

33 casts per minute is correct as my data says the same, and we've yet to meet a bucc to prove us wrong. (COME ON JUSTIN!)

Regardless, my calculations (http://www.basilmarket.com/forum/832508/0/#1.5) show that vipers barely out damage lunchbox heroes when transformed. Normal form will (of course) get raped by even ribgol heroes, thus making the two pretty much equal.

[Dusk]

Meh, the Pirate subforum of Southperry is really bad at staying on-topic.

33 casts per minute can't be exact. That works out to 1818 ms per hit. The closest reasonable number to that is 1820.

[Takebacker]

Meh, the Pirate subforum of Southperry is really bad at staying on-topic.

33 casts per minute can't be exact. That works out to 1818 ms per hit. The closest reasonable number to that is 1820.

I severely doubt 2 ms would make a whole hit per minute (or half a hit) of difference. Show me some numbers. :f5:

Basil is worse, the difference is that the mods are cool here. :wink: (excluding kazoo.... :/)

[Dusk]

Well, I mean, 33/min could mean any number from 32-34. I don't know how fast it is, I don't have a Buccaneer, nor do I plan I making one.

[Russt]

Nitpicking :f3:

And I just took a look at Devil's thread, and holy pineapple that thing is biased.

6x Hero - Brandish (lunchbox - only a few have it +7 scrolled... not realistic)
Bishop + DarkKnight + 4x Captain (Battleship - It will break too quickly... not realistic)

So it's unrealistic to have 6 Heroes with +7 lunchboxes that just spam Brandish, but completely realistic to have 6 Vipers with maxed Time Leap that actually know how to coordinate their sequence correctly. Wtp?

6x Viper (All with 8k+ HP - Pet auto-pot is your friend)

Then take the Bishop out of the NL + BM party and do it again. As you said, pet auto-pot is your friend.

[JoeTang]

LOLOLOL

- Bishop + 5x Viper (6x Revive per 20 mins)
-- X + 5x 77771% = 388.855%
What the fuck is the point of 5 Vipers with a Bishop? Are your Vipers so shitty and stupid that they'd die six times every twenty minutes?

Demolition is 2550ms.

[Fiel]

Back on topic, please.