Normal Luk Versus Lukless; When do they surpass?

[Hazzy]

I'm sure we've seen threads like this somewhere, but when do Full luk Mages pass Lukless Mages in total Magic regardless of gear? Does it ever happen? If they don't pass them with all gear, what would the gear requirements be at significant levels? (100, 120, 140, ect.)

[wobbufet]

The only way I think they could ever surpass lukless mages is if nexon only releases normal luk elemental staves but not the lukless ones.

[Bribery]

If both had equivalently scrolled gear, Lukless will be stronger all the time.

[Hazzy]

If both had equivalently scrolled gear, Lukless will be stronger all the time.

Even if the Regular Luk Mage has perfectly scrolled gear? :eek:

[dizzy]

Even if the Regular Luk Mage has perfectly scrolled gear? :eek:

Well, a godly luk mage will outdamage a weak lukless. But like the other poster said, if their gear is on par, a lukless will always outdamage a normal luk mage at this time. There may be new content and equips released in the future that may change that, but for now lukless mages have a significant advantage.

[Cardboardsnail]

Lukless will always be stronger

Especially once those high level luckless wands come out

[Stereo]

Due to level 64 Maple Weapon, it's currently not possible to be stronger as luk mage than lukless, using "similarly scrolled" gear. There's a gap of nearly 70 int, with all gear improvements for eg. level 100 gear, you can get (due to clean item stats) at most about 45 matk back.


The only way for a luk mage to be competitive is to have the exact base luk that lets them equip a Blade Staff, and to be using a similarly scrolled one to the maple weapons (eg. 4x30% or more), along with all their other gear (Anakarune, etc.) being comparatively better scrolled to the lukless's items.

[Bws2cool]

The only thing Luk is for is to wear armour. So if the armour is equal stats then the Lukless will be better because they will have more Int.

Some say LUK makes your drop rate up. Some say it doesnt.

One other thing LUK is good for is that it makes you lose less % when you die.

[Hazzy]

Hmmmm. What about Low Luk? Can Low Luk surpass Lukless, if they have equally scrolled gear?

[Magus]

As a LUK mage (I started in 2005 when it was the only real option.) the difference is not that huge. A Lukless mage who is the same level as myself only does 2k (average) more damage. Personally I don't think it's such a big deal, I like the fancy armor I get to wear and I'm fine with doing 2k less on my spells.

[DrRusty]

Even though lukless will surpass normal/low luk with similarly scrolled equips, Its kind of funny how the top 2 "mages with the greatest magic atk for their lvl" are both low luk mages.

[Mira]

When I go to himes, I don't care if my priest is Noluk or Lowluk or RegLuk, I just want a priest. I think people just overdramatize Luk. =)

[wobbufet]

When I go to himes, I don't care if my priest is Noluk or Lowluk or RegLuk, I just want a priest. I think people just overdramatize Luk. =)

When a priest becomes a bishop it can easily determine if you 3 hit or 2 hit skeles though...

[Bribery]

I started out as a LUK Cleric because at the time, it was clearly the best choice. The best LUKless weapon at the time was a Yellow Umbrella.

Now I'm a level 13x Bishop and I recently reset to LUKless with no regrets. I went from 2HKO-ing Skele's 70% of the time to 100% of the time AND my new LUKless equips were cheaper than my LUK equips.

Like I said earlier, with equivalently scrolled equipment, it is impossible for a LUK Magician to be stronger. Just consider this: How many Doomsday Staves do you see in the FM? How many Maple Wisdom Staves/Shine Wands do you see? This is why it is easier for a LUKless magician to be stronger. Their weapon is much more common and they already have a huge advantage by having a higher base INT.

[wobbufet]

I started out as a LUK Cleric because at the time, it was clearly the best choice. The best LUKless weapon at the time was a Yellow Umbrella.

Now I'm a level 13x Bishop and I recently reset to LUKless with no regrets. I went from 2HKO-ing Skele's 70% of the time to 100% of the time AND my new LUKless equips were cheaper than my LUK equips.

Like I said earlier, with equivalently scrolled equipment, it is impossible for a LUK Magician to be stronger. Just consider this: How many Doomsday Staves do you see in the FM? How many Maple Wisdom Staves/Shine Wands do you see? This is why it is easier for a LUKless magician to be stronger. Their weapon is much more common and they already have a huge advantage by having a higher base INT.
They were just on the way to getting even when those maple wisdom staffs got released :p oh well, statless builds FTW I guess :o

[jessiebelle]

plus you need to factor in the fact that when a lukless gets to fourth job and gets maple hero, it'll give them a bigger boost than a luk mage, I had a friend and she had an i/l archmage that was lukless and mine wasn't, and we were around the same level and my magic without maple hero was always higher than hers, but with maple hero hers would always be higher than mine because her base INT was higher

[Hana]

Usually they Regular luk will surpass luckless around 130 IMO, with well scrolled equips (DD staff)

[SaucyVixen]

well the mage formula is somewhat screwed if stats are only concerned. Spell mastery is the significant factor in magic damage.

[White Adapt]

I don't think there is ever a time when Luk is better than lukless. Because of the way that the formula works, luk dosn't contribute to damage at all if I remember right. So the only advantage that luk mages have is that they can equip higher level armor. But that armor hadly contribuites anything to damage. If higher level armor gave better stats, it might be worth it to have a luk mage. Or if we didn't have lukless weapons, its espaccially going to be bad when the high level lukless elemental staffs come out.

I wish afrobean were here, I know he has crunched a lot of numbers in reguards to things like this, and his opinions are usually worthwhile to hear.

[Kevo]

Many people have told me that in the long run, that Pure INT and Regular LUK are almost the same in terms of power. So if that's the case, then wouldn't Pure INT be the best choice as you get need fewer mesos to be on par with a Regular LUK, you have higher MP, and you get slightly faster training.

The downside is that one would take more damage and look ugly, which isn't the largest problem as the damage difference may be 30 damage and uglyness can be covered with NX.

I highly advocate Pure INT =D. Try it yourself sometime~

[maricelle]

I think on bishop level, being normal luk/low luk is a big disadvantage, especially with all those new lukless bishops sprouting out, coming to your channel and start bragging about their pro lukless damage
.
For mages, once elementar staves come out there might be a chance to balance out the int loss through luk, and both can be as strong.

Too bad there won't be a higher wand/staff version with luk other than dragon staff/wand =l which will put the normal luk/low luk bishops to everlasting disadvantage compared to the lukless ones.

And 80 luk for ddstaff isn't that hard to reach for a lukless one too. Just need the correct gears =/

[Lana♥]

How depressing. I really wanted to make a normal luk mage this new server <_<. Does anyone know how it is at places like JMS and KMS? Do Luk mages even exist anymore ;-;

[»-Chris->]

I'd say lukless mages have a definitely have a great advantage. The magic would be significantly higher with the same equips for lukless. As mentioned several times before the elemental staffs won't help this at all...

[Blake]

I am a low luk Bishop, and I think my damage is pretty okay. I do have a Doomsday though. Although.. If I ever get a fully scrolled HT pendant (Not likely), I will probably reset my luk to as low as it can possibly go to also get the benefit of the MW20 int bonus.

[Stereo]

Even though lukless will surpass normal/low luk with similarly scrolled equips, Its kind of funny how the top 2 "mages with the greatest magic atk for their lvl" are both low luk mages.

Yeah, and one of them has 2 perfect 30% scrolled items with a +6 30% weapon :eek:

[LazyBui]

How depressing. I really wanted to make a normal luk mage this new server <_<. Does anyone know how it is at places like JMS and KMS? Do Luk mages even exist anymore ;-;

http://i266.photobucket.com/albums/ii247/LazyBui/MapleStory2008-07-0612-37-18-23.png

EDIT: Stopped using this thing after it hit 120. 122 is basically just from questing and leeching some friends. Don't do any luk, do yourself a favor.

[throughglassdarkly]

Absolutely, under no circumstances should you put even a single point into luck if you're playing a mage. I play on Bootes in MSEA, and right now it goes something like this - a clean lv70 Ice Wand (TMA 8x) gives more damage output than a scrolled lv92 14x TMA Pyogo Mushroom. I capped my luck at 40, and now it looks like I'm going to have to reset even that once I reach 130 and can equip the lv130 elemental wand, which beats adding luk to equip the lv 163 elemental staff (requires 165 luk) hands down. That 25% modifier has positively obscene results, and they probably know but don't care since it gets them a ton of profits from people resetting AP and buying gacha tickets to try and get that elusive elemental weapon.

The luk mage's only hope now is either an increase in the percentage boost on the 103/163 Elemental Staffs, which both require luk, or an increased effect of the weapon's attack speed on casting (I'm personally hoping the latter happens, since JMS supposedly got/is getting attack speed scrolls for weapons)

Also, for Bishops - the dragon weapons are not the final weapons. Timeless weapons are at 120 and require luk. Luk bishops will win as long as they don't get holy elemental weapons, which is ironic, since most of them have been clamoring for those since the Mage elemental weapons were announced. Why would anyone ASK to pay 400m for their weapons clean and then have to spend probably an equivalent amount resetting AP points.

Also, with regard to the Low/Normal Luk winning Pure Int in the long run, this occurs because of the Zakum Helm and the HT Pendant. Pure Int mages only benefit from a single stat (Int), whereas Luk mages benefit from two (Int and Luk). This results in Luk mages getting a 15/45 stat boost over their Pure Int counterparts, which, added to the bonus stats they accumulate from their equips, eventually causes them to overpower Pure Int mages. Either way, pure int is the way to go at first. You can add luk if necessary, but you can't unadd it without burning a huge hole in your pocket.

[Secks]

Lukless > Luk [imo]

Lukless mages are easier to make stronger.

[Derimed]

How many Doomsday Staves do you see in the FM? How many Maple Wisdom Staves/Shine Wands do you see? This is why it is easier for a LUKless magician to be stronger. Their weapon is much more common and they already have a huge advantage by having a higher base INT.

There is always a Doomsday staff somewhere someday for the min/maxer. :XD

[Darklai]

Ah the ever-so-debated topic. Well then, just to add my two cents...:

Power wise and money wise, lukless > luk. The bad thing about lukless is that you're stuck with the same looking boring equips for a long time, you lose 10% when you die, and you dunno if you're gonna be able to pull through way later in the future. :P
Regardless, lukless right now are a lot more convinient to most people for oh-so-many reasons. Personally, I prefer normal luk because I can equip nearly anything I want to without a hassle. I have fun changing my crap from time to time. :P
In my opinion though, low luk could be the best. Having just enough luk to equip some higher level stuff that's decently scrolled and no lukless could ever touch? I think that sounds secksay.

[JoshKun]

When I go to himes, I don't care if my priest is Noluk or Lowluk or RegLuk, I just want a priest. I think people just overdramatize Luk. =)

u know... there are 2 other mage classes o.o and in 4th job the gap between luk/lukless is massive.

[Bribery]

MATK is really important for Bishops because the difference between 2HKO-ing Skeles and not 2HKO-ing makes a huge difference in training speed and the amount of meso you spend on potions.

A scrolled Horntail Pendant does bring LUK mages closer to LUKless but LUKless will still be a head.

Timeless Equips aren't the end game equipment for Bishops. They require 123 LUK which is quite a bit. LUKless Bishops are the way to go.

[★tastie]

just because you do less damage doesnt mean you cant play and enjoy the game. the huge emphasis on damage is ridiculous because its not THAT big of a difference. when we first started in gms there really wasnt any "lukless" and with that many/most people added luk as magicians which have now made them considerably weaker. personally if im already at a significant level, the attraction of a tiny boost in damage isnt going to make me spend real money to reset, nor would i restart. so what if i take 1 or 2 extra hits to kill a monster? the game doesnt end.

[Pauru]

In the endgame, I believe that low luck bests luckless, even if just slightly.

HT pendant and a Zhelm on average add 37 luck, then means you only need 43 base to equip a doomsday staff. Toss in some 6x/7x mage gear with luck, and you'll lower the requisite base to 38 or so. Taking out the minimum 4 base luck, that only puts you 34 points of int behind luckless. The difference in magic attack between the average 64 maple wep and a doomsday is 38, fills in the gap, and the int boost already present on 6x/7x int equips fill in for the MW advantage.

Not like 5-10 points of magic attack make a huge difference >_>

Just don't overshoot your luck, and you'll be fine. (Unless timeless mage weps can evolve to be extremely godly; but that will only be the case when and if it happens)

[★tastie]

what do most people have their luk at nowadays?

[EchoFaith]

I would say that the general trend is newer mages have lower luk. When i made my bishop, i capped my luk at 90 because it was what I needed to wear my magicodar. At the time, only hackers actually had zhelms and dark scrolls weren't around, so it was actually a decent weapon. more recently, the ease of scrolling good weapons with dark scrolls as well as availability of zhelms means people are able to cap their luk much earlier than before. even if a player isn't lukless, their luk will probably be capped at a lower point these days compared to about 2 years ago.

[Muse]

The only thing Luk is for is to wear armour. So if the armour is equal stats then the Lukless will be better because they will have more Int.

Since when was a Staff and Wand armour :f6:


Some say LUK makes your drop rate up. Some say it doesnt.
Nope, it doesn't.


One other thing LUK is good for is that it makes you lose less % when you die.
Thats probably one of the only downsides I can think to being luckless.

[SackMaDack]

what do most people have their luk at nowadays?

what with the bandwagon and whatnot i'm guessing most are either set at lukless or something of that sort...funny thing is i had my cleric long before the bandwagon and i never played it till prices for int equips shot through the roof...

[jessiebelle]

what do most people have their luk at nowadays?

I capped my archmage's luk at 60 (80 with equips), but my priest is lukless

[Lunare]

My ArchMage is unfortunately capped at 76 =/ (remaking lol) while my priest is also lukless.

[kIkO]

Low luk is win

I capped my luk at 59, waiting for pend + egg to drop it way more

[Harrisonized]

I once did a calculation in which if a Luk Mage has everything equally scrolled as a Lukless mage, then they would be about the same. However, we know this isn't possible, because this means you would need an unlimited amount of mesos. As in unlimited, I mean billions, many mules having maxed mesos and having access to an unlimited amount of supplies, all while utilizing your luk to its fullest extent (as in if you cap your luk at 83, you shouldn't use anything lower than the level 80 set).
It is possible, but it's not going to happen.

[keturah]

*looks at Heroine ...........forget it guys luk mages never gonna "outdamage" lukless. HOWEVER !!!! imo you are all missing the point !

Please remember that being a bishop isn't about high damage. You can compare your damage with other bishops but why? Unless were talking about killing skeles with genesis, we all suck as attackers :f3:
If you want to brag about your damage you should make a NL or a hero!

[Naixin]

As a LUK mage (I started in 2005 when it was the only real option.) the difference is not that huge. A Lukless mage who is the same level as myself only does 2k (average) more damage. Personally I don't think it's such a big deal, I like the fancy armor I get to wear and I'm fine with doing 2k less on my spells.

^That.

[Russt]

Eh.
Lukless is always slightly better, and significantly cheaper for equivalent equips. (The reason why godly lukless stuff is so expensive is because, simply put, it's godly. If you don't bother with that kind of equipment, and just stick with decent to semi-decent items, you'll still be more or less on par with good luk/low luk mages and spend a lot less.)
But the difference isn't great enough to warrant resetting, really.

[Dusk]

Does LUK affect damage at all? I don't see how a Dragon Staff is a better weapon than any other staff.

[Russt]

Hm, I did a comparison of this kind awhile back and found that a higher staff is better than a lower staff for a cleric/priest because LUK affects the Heal formula more than base INT does.

But for all base-spell-attack based skills, LUK does nothing while INT gives a small static increase (static relative to spell attack anyway). So a Wooden Wand is actually better than a Dragon Staff, both clean.

Mage damage formula wasn't thought through very well, IMO.

[Providence]

Wouldn't normal-LUK Mages (assuming they have a capped base LUK) benefit enough from:

Zakum helmets
"Egg'd" Horntail necklaces
MW 30
Mage equipment
Scrolled wedding ring (each slot adds 1 of each stat)

for their lesser base INT to not matter at all? As long as they use all of their LUK towards something (like that level 163 staff), I don't see how it could. Then again, I don't know what a fully-upgraded Horntail necklace adds, so it might be possible for LUKless to be able to equip high-leveled LUK staves using the LUK they gain from equips like those.

[Harrisonized]

Hm, I did a comparison of this kind awhile back and found that a higher staff is better than a lower staff for a cleric/priest because LUK affects the Heal formula more than base INT does.
This was copied directly from your thread...

MAX = (INT * 4.8 + LUK * 4) * Magic / 1000 * Heal % * Target Multiplier
MIN = (INT * 1.2 + LUK * 4) * Magic / 1000 * Heal % * Target Multiplier
INT carries a weight of 4.8 while LUK carries only a weight of 4. Explain why you contradict yourself?

[Tikey]

Wouldn't normal-LUK Mages (assuming they have a capped base LUK) benefit enough from:

Zakum helmets
"Egg'd" Horntail necklaces
MW 30
Mage equipment
Scrolled wedding ring (each slot adds 1 of each stat)

for their lesser base INT to not matter at all? As long as they use all of their LUK towards something (like that level 163 staff), I don't see how it could. Then again, I don't know what a fully-upgraded Horntail necklace adds, so it might be possible for LUKless to be able to equip high-leveled LUK staves using the LUK they gain from equips like those.

Keep in mind that the average magic attack gain for a clean LUK Staff/Wand is 12 (not counting DD and the Mushrooms). Not only will the LUK mage have to make up for the points they've used in LUK, but also for the massive amounts of magic attack lukless mages get from their weapons.

[blacktiger19]

This was copied directly from your thread...

INT carries a weight of 4.8 while LUK carries only a weight of 4. Explain why you contradict yourself?

I don't know how valid the formula is, but you're only talking about the maximum. The minimum formula counts too, because no mage hits their max 100% of the time.

EDIT: to be on topic, I dont think LUK mages will be more powerful than LUKLESS mages, and if I were to start over today, I'd probably go Lukless. But considering that I'd have to re-do nearly 150 levels, my time >> the few base INT I'd gain from the conversion.

[Russt]

Yes. More accurately, INT carries a weight of 4.8+1.2=6, and LUK carries a weight of 4+4=8.

[Harrisonized]

Yes. More accurately, INT carries a weight of 4.8+1.2=6, and LUK carries a weight of 4+4=8.
So a pure LUK cleric will do more damage using heal than a pure int mage? Somehow, I highly doubt this.

[Russt]

INT adds magic, which multiplies over it all. LUK is only better than INT if total magic remains the same, which is the case when the LUK is used to equip higher level staffs with more magic attack.

I've already wondered about this; adding extra LUK over what your equipment needs is never better than INT except in extreme situations. Like if your magic is somehow more than 3 times your INT.

[blacktiger19]

So a pure LUK cleric will do more damage using heal than a pure int mage? Somehow, I highly doubt this.

Remember that's just the heal formula, I dont think I've used heal as a serious weapon since 7x or so.

[Cyanne]

Int also adds magic attack, so unless 1 luk affects average damage more than 1 int + 1 matk, lukless clerics will still deal better damage.

[Silence]

they have a updated comparison of lukless vs luk mages with elemental wands on the playpark forums, thou i dont think they took account of mw20

[Hazzy]

they have a updated comparison of lukless vs luk mages with elemental wands on the playpark forums, thou i dont think they took account of mw20

Link, perhaps? :>

[Afrobean]

they have a updated comparison of lukless vs luk mages with elemental wands on the playpark forums, thou i dont think they took account of mw20What?

What comparison?

Both builds use the same weapon at endgame. Players with 130 luk use a lukless wand. Players with 4 luk use a lukless wand. The only thing luk can give for Magicians is higher level armor, but the APs gained by the higher level armor aren't even enough to break even. The only exception is Zhelm+HTnecklace, whereby Magicians can equip armor of about level 40 without paying a cost for it (the luk they get from their helm/pendant don't come at the expense of int).

And MW doesn't matter. Even highest luk users can use MW to it's full just like lukless, it just requires them to cap for it, and it also requires that they recast MW if they get dispelled.

[Kabanaw]

I think that I might actually not have that big of a disadvantage over lukless mages. I capped my luk at 103, so a 22 luk HT pendant, a 15 luk z-helm, and a some extra luk on my other equips lets me use the lvl 163 staff. I have 99 more luk than a lukless, but since the lvl 163 has about 45 more MA than the 130 staff, it makes the difference 54. And assuming that I have 1000 MA and a lukless has 1055 MA, I would do about 6k less dmg with my ultimate if we were both using ice weapons. And considering how my equips are much cheaper since no one uses them, I'd say that's pretty good.

[keturah]

And MW doesn't matter. Even highest luk users can use MW to it's full just like lukless, it just requires them to cap for it, and it also requires that they recast MW if they get dispelled.

Unless I read this wrong, I have to respectfully disagree. A pure int mage has higher base int which is what MW is based on. Therefore, a pure int mage is always going to get more benefit from MW than a luk mage. If we talk MW 20 here which is 10% and the diff between pure int and 70 base luk mage it means a constant advantage of 7 int always.

[butterfλi]

Unless I read this wrong, I have to respectfully disagree. A pure int mage has higher base int which is what MW is based on. Therefore, a pure int mage is always going to get more benefit from MW than a luk mage. If we talk MW 20 here which is 10% and the diff between pure int and 70 base luk mage it means a constant advantage of 7 int always.

No, Afrobean is right. If the luk magician uses mw to equip their weapon, then they both get the same boost.

lukless
int : 500 x 0.1 = 50 int boost = 50 int boost
luk : 4 x 0.1 = 0.4 luk boost = 0 luk boost

luk
int : 404 x 0.1 = 40.4 int boost = 40 int boost
luk : 100 x 0.1 = 10 luk boost = 10 luk boost

both luk and lukless get the same amount of stat from mw. but the luk just needs to reset luk and need mw on full-time to hold their weapon.

[Silence]

here's the link for every1 that was asking for it =x
http://forums.playpark.net/showthread.php?t=468973

also isn't there a glitch where u get dispel (and u need mw to equip ur weapon), then u will d/c?