For all you Dark Knights out there

[HiiEN]

There's always that big question (well at least to me)...

In your opinion, Achilles or Beholder Healing, and why?

[ThisIsSal]

I got 11 achilles, but now i wish i had some beholder healing instead.

not very useful.

[Hazzy]

Achillies reduces the damage taken from 1/1 attacks. :P

[Wani]

I wouldn't mind a little achilles to save my ass from 1/1s (Too cheap to buy auto HP), but I'm not regretting maxing aura of the beholder. It's saved my ass and a few pots. It'd be nice if it healed a little more HP though.

[UltimaSteele]

Even with max achilles, the 1/1 attacks will still usually leave you vulnerable for a OHKO unless your HP is 20k+, and even then..
However, even if achilles is useless there for you, it will reduce damage you recieve from training and may even make berserking at skelegons slightly easier or at a slightly lower level.
I'm a hero though, so chances are, I have no idea what I'm talking about. =P

[HiiEN]

Well the 1/1 damage reduction is a nice kicker but it isn't much to go crazy about for Achilles. Excluding 1/1 attacks, it's more useful in protecting against larger number damages (like taking a body hit from zakum/horntail) while I believe healing is better suited for training, since it doesn't heal fast enough for shit at bosses. The only question is which one first? I'm starting to think it depends on where you'll be at more I suppose.

[Hero]

15% extra weapon defense is a nice plus even for training. For bosses though, it's mostly for bump damage with a summon after a 1/1 at zakum. We've all had runs where half your squad got humped on by summons right after a 1/1 and they all died- those moments.

[Hazzy]

What portion of your HP does Achilles leave you after a 1/1 attack? Does it just drop you down to 15%(Maxed Achilles)? :f6:

[Bawblehead]

What portion of your HP does Achilles leave you after a 1/1 attack? Does it just drop you down to 15%(Maxed Achilles)? :f6:


i think that and 1 hp. with max achiles, i can survive thebodyguard's 27k dmg with only 24k hp :O

[Hero]

i think that and 1 hp. with max achiles, i can survive thebodyguard's 27k dmg with only 24k hp :O

That's interesting. :eek: Thanks for the clarification.

[Stereo]

What portion of your HP does Achilles leave you after a 1/1 attack? Does it just drop you down to 15%(Maxed Achilles)? :f6:

It leaves you with 15% of the HP you had.

If you had 2000 hp left, then 300. If you had 10000 hp left, then 1500.

Max Achilles @ Zakum with 20k+ HP lets you take 1/1 and then any of his magic attacks without dying. Requires washing to hit that HP though..

[edit] I wish it was a little stronger, I mean it's 30 SP for 15% and Powerguard is 30 SP for 40% (20% on bosses even) and that's a 2nd job skill.

[Hazzy]

[edit] I wish it was a little stronger, I mean it's 30 SP for 15% and Powerguard is 30 SP for 40% (20% on bosses even) and that's a 2nd job skill.

That, and it even reflects the damage back on them. :f3:
Nexon really does hate Warriors.... :f5:

[HiiEN]

I believe it was calculated that combining Power Guard's 40% and Achilles's 15% came around to a total of 50% damage reduction (physical). Keep in mind while Power Guard reduces only physical, Achilles reduces both magical and physical damage. But yeah, just a reminder, DrK's don't get Power Guard, so I mean the question is still Achilles or Healing? My observations are viewed as this:

Achilles - 30 SP - 15% Permanent Physical and Magical Reduction - Good for bossing, okay for training, more effective for larger damages
Healing - 25 SP - Heals 500hp every 4 Seconds - Okay for bossing, better for training, effective for smaller spread multiple damages (what I believe)

[Yoorah]

Aura of the Beholder is a must have for training, especially at lower levels, where you can barely take two hits from the monster you're training on. It takes off a lot of stress for maintaining your HP at Berserk level; tops off your HP so that you can get your maximum HP below your Berserk limit without carrying a tonne of different pots and removes the need for you to try to figure out which pot to use all the time. This may not sound like a significant advantage, but you will think differently if you spend 3+ hours training. Having to concentrate so much on your HP gets very tiresome and it is the main drawback of the Dark Knight class, in my opinion. Anything to help with that is a godsend, and I've found that Aura helped me a lot.

Achilles might be useful for bosses, but I honestly don't know. I'm level 156, and I fight Horned Tail almost every day. Achilles will probably be one of the last skills on my list to max.

[HiiEN]

Aura of the Beholder is a must have for training, especially at lower levels, where you can barely take two hits from the monster you're training on. It takes off a lot of stress for maintaining your HP at Berserk level; tops off your HP so that you can get your maximum HP below your Berserk limit without carrying a tonne of different pots and removes the need for you to try to figure out which pot to use all the time. This may not sound like a significant advantage, but you will think differently if you spend 3+ hours training. Having to concentrate so much on your HP gets very tiresome and it is the main drawback of the Dark Knight class, in my opinion. Anything to help with that is a godsend, and I've found that Aura helped me a lot.

Achilles might be useful for bosses, but I honestly don't know. I'm level 156, and I fight Horned Tail almost every day. Achilles will probably be one of the last skills on my list to max.
I agree, Aura is amazing during training when maintaining Berserk. It lets me stick to only one pot type instead of having to hold, say, white pots just to hold the maximum threshold. I just think that Aura isn't as useful in Horntail since it doesn't heal fast enough to compete with potting, at least to my extent of knowledge in fighting it. Also considering that you'd be healed by a bishop about 90% of the time, Achilles is more useful since it prevents damage from being done rather than restoring it after it's been dealt with. But I guess it depends on what you do more. And yeah, I Horntail more than train.

[Yoorah]

Yeah, Achilles is potentially more useful at HT, as it could save a lower HP Dark Kight who's a noob and bumped into a body part. But if you don't do anything stupid, both skills are useless at HT, so I don't think it should be used as a deciding factor (or as part of it).

[viperxuat]

I don't find either very useful, but then again I only have 2 Aura and 10 Achilles. But if i had the points for it I would probably max achilles first. It would make it easier to berserk.

[HiiEN]

Well I believe it's pretty obvious that Aura would decimate Achilles in terms of usefulness in training. Achilles won't shine unless the damage you take is significant enough, and Aura won't succeed as easily if the rate you take damage is way greater than the amount healed.

[HayO]

I have max beholders heal and I dont regret it, it's very handy for training pretty much everywhere also the fact it doesnt go above the berserk limit unless you overpot yourself. I dont have any points in Achilles yet but it will be the next thing I get after adding stance from 27 to 30.

[TLeviathan]

Aura over Achilles. I have 0 in Aura (since I don't often train) but I'll be starting it in a few levels. Often I'm left in berserk for 30 seconds or more without being hit. With Aura, I'd be brought back up to berserk's max hp (which will be significantly higher when I can actually pass the damned lv30 book) and could go that much longer without potting. With lv30 berserk and a high hp, you can go several minutes without potting if you're careful/lucky/skilled.

[Tuke]

Aura, for sure, it helps you keep berserk up, which would help you in your training.

Achilles is only useful at bosses, and well... you don't level up by bossing with a DrK.

[Wani]

Aura, for sure, it helps you keep berserk up, which would help you in your training.

Achilles is only useful at bosses, and well... you don't level up by bossing with a DrK.

Too bad bosses are the only places you get parties as a DrK D:

[ThisIsSal]

odd, in mardia drks are generally the most partied warriors.

most of the higher level ones have consistent trainin partners.

[HiiEN]

Only if you deal a good enough output are you considered good enough for a party. Otherwise people would rather have HB mules lol.

[TLeviathan]

Only if you deal a good enough output are you considered good enough for a party. Otherwise people would rather have HB mules lol.

A 2hko'ing DK should be fine for partying (this isn't very hard to get, really, as most who berserk at 150 should do this). Before then, yea you might have trouble but when you 2hko the only thing holding you back is preconceived bias. Aura is going to help you berserk more than achilles is (esp. by 150) and will help you keep your damage within "party acceptable" ranges.

[HiiEN]

If you can prove that you can 2hko easy then it's easy to get into a party. Anything less than that significantly lowers the rate. If you can't 2hko you're better off killing himes until you can or until you can pull enough points and money together for berserk.

Additionally, Achilles wasn't made to support Berserk. I believe it was specifically made for bossing only. I suppose Aura is a better investment in the earlier levels, supporting Berserk or not since it provides a better benefit in training.

[Hana]

If I still played my DK, I would go for healer.

[Nesso]

I went with Achilles, and I haven't given any doubt to whether or not I made the right decision. Skelegon blasts normall hit me for around 3300. With 20 into Achilles, it drops to 3000, give or take. It's very easy to stay in the threshold when your damage can easily be potted. Achilles just makes Beserk so much more easier to manage, I couldn't possibly think about going without it.

And then there's the whole bossing aspect but that's unimportant.

[AlterWolfie]

I had maxed aura I think, and it was very helpful in training with berserk even in 13x. You still obviously had to stay on top of things, but it made the potting much more constant, as opposed to having to having the HP flucuate quite so much.
-AlterWolfie, who liked not having the 'if I pot I'm out of berserk, but if I don't pot I'm gonna die' situation quite so often.

[RFSurg]

One thing I've heard about achilles is that, if you have max berserk, you can't use a 40% pot after 1/1 and still be zerked if your achilles blocks more than 4.5% damage.

[HiiEN]

One thing I've heard about achilles is that, if you have max berserk, you can't use a 40% pot after 1/1 and still be zerked if your achilles blocks more than 4.5% damage.
That's assuming you're using berserk at bosses.

[RFSurg]

Why wouldn't you? At Zak/Pap/Pianus, the worst damage you'll take is less than or slightly more than the most a skele can do and your DPS is much higher with zerk.

[solid_ice8]

according to what fiel has told me back on sw forum

if you have 10k hp with lv15 archilles
and you get hit with 1/1, you have 750 hp remaining
so, thats 1500 hp with max archilles

when you have 30k hp, you'll have 4500 hp from 1/1

4.5k hp from 1/1, thats alot more helpful than 500 hp/4sec

[AlterWolfie]

according to what fiel has told me back on sw forum

if you have 10k hp with lv15 archilles
and you get hit with 1/1, you have 750 hp remaining
so, thats 1500 hp with max archilles

when you have 30k hp, you'll have 4500 hp from 1/1

4.5k hp from 1/1, thats alot more helpful than 500 hp/4sec

Well, by the time you have 30k HP, you probably can easily have both. The question is which one to get first?.
-AlterWolfie, who thinks that you're under-estimating 500hp/4sec.

[Wani]

For bosses, yes, I could see why achilles is better, but think about training. L25 achilles is 12.5% damage reduction. On skeles, they do 3300 damage, that's saving about 410 HP a hit. It's easy enough to only get hit every 4 seconds, since if you're getting hit more than that, you're probably taking the smaller touch damage, so 500 HP > 410 HP.

[HayO]

The whole achilles thing wasnt clear to me since a while ago I thought you would actually see the 'less' dmg you take when you get hit and when you got 1/1 you would have the % of achilles left of your MAX HP but than I heared its from the HP you got at the moment you got 1/1'd. If thats true then lets say I'd have serk30 means 10k hp to stay below than I think I should be able to use those 40% pots on 1/1. Still I dont regret getting Aura before Achilles cause it actually helps alot like some allready said.

[Xelstyle]

Well there isn't much more I can add to what's been said multiple times. xD

New question I guess:
How useful is Hex to you guys?
Besides the whole "Cancels out apple thing".

[ThisIsSal]

I have 15 or 18 aura now and i love it, saves me a shitload of worry at skeles.

can't wait for higher levels of it.

[HiiEN]

Well there isn't much more I can add to what's been said multiple times. xD

New question I guess:
How useful is Hex to you guys?
Besides the whole "Cancels out apple thing".
Although that'd be hijacking the thread, I'll give you my input.

I don't think it's useful unless you plan on stopping it at level 20. Overall, I wouldn't use it until it was the very last skill.

[Xelstyle]

Although that'd be hijacking the thread, I'll give you my input.

I don't think it's useful unless you plan on stopping it at level 20. Overall, I wouldn't use it until it was the very last skill.

I apologize for doing so, but it did seem like there was a unified answer to your question.

[Corn]

*Note this was on Tespia.*

Achilles. Beholder's heal does not reduce the amount of hits that skelegons can kill you in while in bezerk, but achilles does.

[HiiEN]

*Note this was on Tespia.*

Achilles. Beholder's heal does not reduce the amount of hits that skelegons can kill you in while in bezerk, but achilles does.
Well that makes sense, Achilles is a permanent defense, therefore it would decrease the number of hits needed overall. Aura wouldn't do that because it heals you over time, so if skelegons did enough damage to kill you in one hit Achilles would reduce that damage before it hit you. Aura would heal you AFTER taking the hit, so you'd already be dead by then.

[Xelstyle]

Well that makes sense, Achilles is a permanent defense, therefore it would decrease the number of hits needed overall. Aura wouldn't do that because it heals you over time, so if skelegons did enough damage to kill you in one hit Achilles would reduce that damage before it hit you. Aura would heal you AFTER taking the hit, so you'd already be dead by then.

It'd be very risky to be training at Skeles if they 1HKO you without Achilles.
At lower levels of Achilles, either you're going to underpot and die, or overpot. =/

[Wani]

*Note this was on Tespia.*

Achilles. Beholder's heal does not reduce the amount of hits that skelegons can kill you in while in bezerk, but achilles does.

While this is true, at my current HP, having achilles also won't reduce the number of hits a skele will kill me in if I'm berserk. (Currently 2 XD)

[HiiEN]

I'm not saying it will for everyone. I'm talking about in an extreme situation. Technically Achilles would reduce the number of hits because it prevents the damage before it affects your HP. Aura would restore the damage after it's been taken. I'm not saying it's better or worse for training, I was emphasizing what Clawofbeta was stating.

[MasPan]

A 2hko'ing DK should be fine for partying (this isn't very hard to get, really, as most who berserk at 150 should do this). Before then, yea you might have trouble but when you 2hko the only thing holding you back is preconceived bias. Aura is going to help you berserk more than achilles is (esp. by 150) and will help you keep your damage within "party acceptable" ranges.

Unfortunately, PA DrKs will take a LOT longer to ever 2hko Newts with anything other than sacrifice (and sacrifice + zerk is a generally bad idea - note that there are some exceptions). PA DrKs used to be party kings at large-mob maps, and are now forced to pretty much solo, as we don't have enough of a damage output on maps like newts to be competitive for party slots. Least we still have crimson guardians...

[modular]

Unfortunately, PA DrKs will take a LOT longer to ever 2hko Newts with anything other than sacrifice (and sacrifice + zerk is a generally bad idea - note that there are some exceptions). PA DrKs used to be party kings at large-mob maps, and are now forced to pretty much solo, as we don't have enough of a damage output on maps like newts to be competitive for party slots. Least we still have crimson guardians...

you should really take a look at post dates before dredging up 5 month old threads :/

[Kim41]

Unfortunately, PA DrKs will take a LOT longer to ever 2hko Newts with anything other than sacrifice (and sacrifice + zerk is a generally bad idea - note that there are some exceptions). PA DrKs used to be party kings at large-mob maps, and are now forced to pretty much solo, as we don't have enough of a damage output on maps like newts to be competitive for party slots. Least we still have crimson guardians...

Instead of aiming for 2 hit KOing monsters with fury, PA DrKs should aim for 3 hit KOing. I did the math and it showed that 3 furies is only about .2 seconds slower than 2 crushers, if you're using a red surfboard. 3 fury attacks is also fast enough to kill skeles before you get hit with their magic attack. Once you can 3 hit KO skeles, training there really isn't that bad. You kill almost as fast as a 2 hitting spear user, you have more range, and you can kill up to 6 monsters rather than up to 3. I never really tried newties much. I hate training there as it's impossible for me to kill them before getting attacked back.

But yeah, 100% 3 hit KOing skeles isn't that easy. I started 3 hit killing them around 90% of the time at around level 150 with a 12x red surfboard and 4 dex base. Although, if you have good bishop friends, they'll probably take you anyway even if you don't kill that fast just cause you have hb. :P I usually still train with the same person I himed with back when I was a DK.

But back on topic. o.o I have maxed aura and I find it extremely useful. I also recommend it for pure PA DrKs since fury drains hp with every attack, which is a real pain until you get a high enough level of aura to keep up with fury hp drain. My achilles is only lvl 1 to prevent me from dying of 1/1 and poison and so that DB doesn't get canceled after 1/1. I only plan on getting it high enough so that I won't overpot over zerk level while using ginsengs after 1/1.

[MoT]

One thing you have to realize though is that both of those skills are different kinds really. Achilles is more of a boss skill and Beholder Healing is more of a training skill. I'm a 189 Dark Knight that was able to survive 2 tail hits at HT because of Achilles being maxed out and lowering the damage to only 24.5k and 25.4k. Beholder heal though is a great skill especially at skels cause all you really need to do is rush and crush if your a Pure spear. Sorry Pure P/a's, I can't really speak from your point of view. All in all if your more of a bosser only type, go for Achilles and if you train more than boss, stick with the healer. :chin:

[Resonance]

My achilles is only lvl 1 to prevent me from dying of 1/1 and poison and so that DB doesn't get canceled after 1/1. I only plan on getting it high enough so that I won't overpot over zerk level while using ginsengs after 1/1.

I'm glad someone finally pointed this out (I'm glad someone posted; I forgot this thread existed).

Tactic: Currently gMS only - requires 45% max Berserk threshold and 40% HP potions (or 35% threshold and 30% HP pots...but how do you plan on mass buying those each time you want to boss?). Use a Ginseng Root after receiving 1/1 and retain Berserk (instead of hitting your Berserk pot key 2-4 times).

Max HP = 30000 (calculating with max since the higher HP you have, the higher Achilles you can have for this Berserk tactic).
Max Berserk HP = 13500.
Damage recovered with a Ginseng Root: 12000.
Damage taken with a 1/1 & 0 Achilles: 13499.
Damage taken with a 1/1 & 10 Achilles: 12149.
Damage taken with a 1/1 & 11 Achilles: 12082.
Damage taken with a 1/1 & 12 Achilles: 12015.
Damage taken with a 1/1 & 13 Achilles: 11942 = Overpot.

The lower your max HP, the lower your max Achilles can be for this to work. This doesn't factor in the healing you would get from Aura of the Beholder, however, as that may coincidentally heal you while you use that Ginseng, putting you above the Berserk threshold. This also doesn't take into account that it's very unlikely that you will keep your HP exactly at the Berserk threshold, meaning an even lower Achilles would be preferred. In short, if you plan on Berserking with Ginseng Roots as your 1/1 pot, the highest Achilles you can have is 13.

[haha01haha01]

something interesting i found is, if your achilles is maxed and you get a 1\1 attack, you shouldnt have (15% of your hp) + 1 left. you are actually supposed to have (15% of your hp) + 0.85, but maplestory rounds it up.