Theory: FA-less Fighter/Page

[Russt]

When I think about it, it's kind of ironic I'm making this thread now. Awhile back I used to argue vehemently on lolbasil for maxing FA as an archer, on those massive flame threads that cropped up every now and then. That was fun...

Anyway. Warning: Wall of text.

Final Attack, as you all know, increases PS damage over time while screwing over SB. It's also a pretty high priority skill for most fighters and pages.

Well known, basic fact: Attacking many targets at once is more effective than one at a time. It's the reason why mage ultimate training is so fast, and why you probably maxed SB before PS unless you started with no pot money.

So why is it that so many people decide to destroy SB's innate mobbing potential for the sake of single target DPS with Power Strike, which is clearly inferior to begin with?

I propose a more mobbing-oriented strategy in 2nd and 3rd job- oh wait, that's not new. Mobbing is already a warrior's strong suit. Consider this: archers skip FA primarily because it ruins their mobbing potential and move speed. So why do fighters and pages get it, when they mob much more often than archers and don't have the benefit of long range to cover for being stuck standing still?

Some may ask, "But where would you put the extra points?"
Is this even a legitimate question? Skipping FA gives you a surplus of skill points. I don't care what you do with them, but they'll benefit something no matter where you stick them.
Axe Mastery/Booster? Become a... 1.25 hybrid, or whatever you want to call it.
Iron Body? 20 mesos a touch may not be much, but you can't complain because it's still a gain. (Oh hey, I made a mini-rhyme.)
Endure? HP Recov? Go right ahead, no one's stopping you.

"But that's a waste of points! FA >>> Endure!"
FA is detrimental to effective mobbing. Zero > negative.

"Later on, you won't be mobbing."
Later on, you'll have Brandish/Blast.

I've done some DPS comparisons of PS and SB, with and without FA, for you to look at:
For Reference
All speeds are Fast (4), or Normal (6) with Booster.
Power Strike: 260% damage, 720ms
Power Strike + PS/FA: 510% damage, 1130ms average (3:2 swing:stab)
Slash Blast: 130% per monster, 720ms
SB/FA: 500%*(1/3)^monster, or
166.67% | 222.22% | 240.74% | 246.91% | 248.97% | 249.66% (cumulative damage over # of monsters; AGF people will recognize this type of chart)
Slash Blast + SB/FA: 130% + SB/FA chart above, 1130ms average

...I was going to post the calcs step by step, but didn't feel like typing all that out. If someone asks, I'll show my work. But not unless someone asks.

All final results rounded to nearest integer because you get the idea anyway and a bunch of decimals are just ughhhh.

Power Strike = 260%/.720 = 361%/s
Power Strike + FA: 510%/1.130 = 451%/s

Slash Blast = SB/.720
= 181%/s | 361%/s | 542%/s | 722%/s | 903%/s | 1083%/s
Slash Blast + FA = SB+FA/1.130
= 263%/s | 427%/s | 558%/s | 679%/s | 796%/s | 911%/s

Net change with FA:
90.216% more DPS on PS
82% | 66% | 17% | -44% | -107% | -172% more DPS on SB

Percent change:
24.983% increase on PS
45% | 18% | 3% | -6% | -12% | -16% increase on SB

Positive numbers signify an increase with FA, negative numbers decrease.

Conclusion
FA adds around 90 to single-target %DPS with PS, but subtracts up to 172 from 6-mobbing %DPS with SB. Keep in mind that 6-mobbing gives three times the damage output of single-hitting, so it's more favorable to use when possible.

If the numbers confuse you (which I hope they don't but inevitably they will confuse some), what all that basically means is that FA boosts your efficiency when you attack 1-3 at a time and impedes you at 4-6.

One additional point to note is that FA also impedes when it attacks nothing, since you could be moving around rather than swinging at air. More moving equates to faster coverage of the map and faster training. It's why Haste, Teleport, and FJ - not to mention Rush - are good skills.

Also (thanks Judgment for bringing this up):

The extra attack from FA also strikes at a speed so quickly that the mob doesn't get to recover from the KB animation, and doesn't KB the monster again, thus causing you to take possible bump damage. This is mostly noticable at Ghost Pirates/Dual GPs, a mob where you want to take as little bump damage as possible from. The only exception to the whole FA not KBing the monster again thing is, from my observations, if the FA is a slash when you're using a Slow (7) weapon without booster. (I'm not sure if this is also the case for a Normal weapon w/o booster, and also for Slow weapons with booster.)

So after all this there's still one thing I don't get.

How come everyone has FA?

[JezzaRules]

FA is useful in training between 30-120 due to the 'extra increased damage that requires no MP cost'. However at 120 this skill is made obsolete by Brandish/Blaster.
If you're a fighter or page, definately get this skill because you'd be using power strike and slash blast often. You wont be spamming Panic, Coma or Charged Blow as a Crusader/White Knight because those require charges.
Spearmans should forget about this skill coz Spear/Polearm crusher and Dragons Fury are the main attacking skills you'd be using and FA wont activate upon usage. The only time they'd be using this is between 30-70 (yes I'd know it's obvious but I should point it out).

[Russt]

FA is useful in training between 30-120 due to the 'extra increased damage that requires no MP cost'.
The extra MP spent is negligible. If you got Iron Body instead and actually recast it, you'd save as much in HP.


If you're a fighter or page, definately get this skill because you'd be using power strike and slash blast often.
Exactly.

[Fiel]

As a crusader, FA is important to gathering orbs quicker. Faster collection of orbs is better for the final blast of coma. When Slash Blast is only 780% to the entire mob and Coma is much stronger, the point is to get to coma as quickly as possible. Your argument might work better for WKs, though.

[Judgment]

There's also another disadvantage to FA that you should mention about.

The extra attack from FA also strikes at a speed so quickly that the mob doesn't get to recover from the KB animation, and doesn't KB the monster again, thus causing you to take possible bump damage. This is mostly noticable at Ghost Pirates/Dual GPs, a mob where you want to take as little bump damage as possible from. The only exception to the whole FA not KBing the monster again thing is, from my observations, if the FA is a slash when you're using a Slow (7) weapon without booster. (I'm not sure if this is also the case for a Normal weapon w/o booster, and also for Slow weapons with booster.)

[Russt]

As a crusader, FA is important to gathering orbs quicker. Faster collection of orbs is better for the final blast of coma. When Slash Blast is only 780% to the entire mob and Coma is much stronger, the point is to get to coma as quickly as possible. Your argument might work better for WKs, though.
Oh yeah, orbs.

I tend to think from a WK's point of view, so I forgot all about charging orbs while writing this. Yeah, that's definitely a legitimate reason to max it.

@ Judgment - true as well.

[Morgana]

Personally, even for a page, I would still max (and I actually have maxed) FA.

FA is a big help at single targets and bosses, and the game isn't just training for me. (Not like one plays a WK to boss, but it helps to not be completely crippled. :f3:)

The reality is, the vast majority of the time, you're going to be looking at 3-4 target mobs. When you have only a one-sided, close-range mob skill, as opposed to AoEs or long-range attacks like other classes, you just don't get 6 targets very often. Yes, some maps are mobbier than others... That's the risk I'm taking. But heck, in 3rd job, if I got a 6 target mob I'd use Charge Blow at least once.

Perhaps one day pages will be skipping FA, and they'll think I'm wrong, but I don't regret my choice.


EDIT: Let's put it this way. I skipped HA on my priest, because it doesn't have a significant damage advantage in any situation. FA, on the other hand, does, so I'd rather have it. Even if it's passive. To me, the disadvantage on large mobs is far outweighed by the single-target and small-mob advantages.

EDIT2: It would be interesting to get some opinions from WKs who are late third job and onward, and have played through this stuff. =)

[Stereo]

The numbers for a Crusader are honestly not easy to follow and my calculations weren't well documented so I can't find the exact difference, but the end result is:

SB+FA+Coma > SB+Coma.

PS+FA+Panic > PS+Panic.


For WKs single target damage is extremely important because their mob range sucks, leaving them attacking single targets a lot of the time. Can't say if that's the same for Crusaders, since they can hunt Gobies which conveniently mob up.



1 thing I am certain about is this: On average, 5 orbs = 5 attack times. 5 orbs incl. FA = 4.4 attack times. Since coma is the finisher, it's logical that doing comas 12% faster (on average) is a good thing. As you indicated, the total loss of FA is only -12% on 5 targets and -16% on 6. This means FA is definitely better on 1-4, almost the same on 5, and only slightly worse on 6. (this is only approximate)


- I wouldn't include single target SB in the net % change of FA, you won't use SB if there's a single target.

[Slashermills2]

Not a bad arguement but... I kinda can't imagine any Sader without FA

[Dusk]

The advantages of a faster Coma completely outshadow any DPS advantage you gain from not having FA.

[Nikkey]

Well, here's a setup on how fast[4] is:
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/1108/sbfafe9.png
*DPS. Multiply with your dmg-range + combo/berserk/charge multiplier to get avg DPS.

Calculating the integral of both gives SB + SB a value of 31.5972, while SB + FA is "only" 30.5955 (NB, from 1-6, not 0-6), so in theory, SB + SB is 3.27% faster than SB + FA. In theory.

(oh and yeah, SB + SB is better after 3.30878898 monsters. In theory.)

Let's see on the PS + FA vs PS + PS one, included:
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/8726/xfaxn6.png

Integral is 32.7302 for X + X, 31.881 for X + FA. 2.6% more damage from being FA-less. In theory.

In-game, however, FA will be way, way more efficient due to the fact that you'll most likely have a majority of 1-4 mobs instead of mobs over 3 monsters big. Also, bosses anyone?

I'll work on some sader-calculations, as these consider a lot of probability to take into account.

Edit: Sader formula:

All different possibilities:
SB + SB + SB + SB + SB + FA + Coma = only one (NNNNY)
SB + FA + SB + FA + SB + FA + Coma = only one (YYY)
SB + FA + SB + FA + SB + Coma = multiple (this is YYN)
SB + SB + SB + FA + SB + Coma = multiple (this is NNYN)
SB + SB + SB + SB + SB + Coma = only one (NNNNN)

a = chance of FA
b = 1 - a

P1 = b^4 * a
P2 = a^3
P3 = (3 chance 2) * a^2 * b = 3 * a^2 * b
P4 = (4 chance 3) * b^3 * a = 4 * b^3 * a
P5 = b^5
Pall = P1 + P2 + P3 + P4 + P5

x = monsters
c = FA-multiplier
d = Slash blast multiplier
e = coma multiplier
orbs (= 5)
f = (avg) amount of seconds for FA + SB
g = amount of seconds for SB and Coma


Damage-output of all the different damages, DPS-wise:
FA + SB = A = (d * x + c * (1+(1/3)^6-(1/3)^x))/f
SB = B = d * x / g
Coma = C = e * 5.0 * x / g

DPSes:
D1 = (A + B * 4)
D2 = (A * 3)
D3 = (A * 2 + B)
D4 = (A + B * 3)
D5 = (B * 5)

Avg DPS (6 seconds):

((D1 * P1 + D2 * P2 + D3 * P3 + D4 * P4 + D5 * P5)+ Coma)/Pall

Shortened (6 seconds, still):
(a(3Aa^2 + b(3a(2A+B)+b(A(4b^2)+4B(3+b^2)))) + 5Bb^5)/Pall + C

Without FA, the damage is:

5B + C

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/5104/facomasc4.gif

[Stereo]

Crusader hits
PS FA
1 (no orbs)
0.4 0.6
0.76 0.24
0.544 0.456
0.6736 0.3264
0.59584 0.40416
0.40416
(last 2 numbers in first column are Finisher chances after 5 and 6 hits)

These are the chances of each hit (1 to 5 orbs) being PS or FA. It should be possible to combine this with weapon speed + damage data to determine the average dps of PS+FA.

[JoeTang]

From a White Knight's perspective, this is a better idea. As a Crusader, the loss of the extra orb charging can reduce DPS if you do intend to release your Combo into a Finisher frequently; i.e. Coma.

[Obike]

It's been done. Any Hybrid Hero or Paladin (I've never met a hybrid pally actually, but it makes sense that no one would make a hybrid pally since all their charges are weapon specific) went without FA to have enough spare points to max mastery and booster for both weapon types. In the end, it really doesn't matter because as stated before, people will use Brandish, Blast, and ACB. For newbies/casual gamers, slight changes in DPM doesn't really matter to them. For serious gamers, they can get to 4th job relatively fast, so FA doesn't really matter to them either. (I know people that can get from lv 5x to 8x in one night legitly, with the help of some friends.)

Reason I believe people get FA:
I think in the end, it's mostly a matter aesthetics. It feels faster to fight with FA, it looks like you do more damage because there are more/faster numbers popping up even for SB. So even if the numbers add up to less damage, to the player it just feels like it's better. Personally, I got FA because my character was made to fight bosses and 4th job wasn't out yet. PS + FA + Panic was the best option for a sader to boss fight with.

[NoJobNoRules]

(I know people that can get from lv 5x to 8x in one night legitly, with the help of some friends.)I would love to know the methods for doing that. :f6:


As for the above mention about GPs/DGPs, I can effectively train there and rarely get hit even with FA. I use a Blue Screamer and booster. I just make sure to leave enough space that the knockback will keep it at bay even if FA activates.


I often use Coma on mobs, even if there are only 3. Use it, lure one away, charge up orbs while killing, then re-stun the rest, lure one again, etc. Works quite well. :)


I like FA. It just looks cool and is a fun skill. Besides, who doesn't like seeing the FA effect of things like Red Whips and Stirge-On-A-String? :P

[Nikkey]

I would love to know the methods for doing that. :f6:

Leeching.

[Beserker101]

I have a second page I'm working on and I plan to make a third in the future when I can get another E-mail address. So if anyone wants me to make my third (or even second since it is at that point) to test the advantages/disadvantages, I am willing to. My third one would most like be the one I test this with, since my WK (first page) has a higher base DEX than my second and if I make a third, I can have it have the same DEX as my second one giving a more effective comparison. Being that I enjoy pages also, makes this project seem much easier for me (in my own mind).

Edit: I used my school E-mail address to make a new account so I'll use that to make two new pages and they will both use the same equips and have the same stats. Using the 2 of them, I will find which is easier to train. My plan is to have them both with X/30/4/4. I chose 30 DEX because that should be the easiest to continue with with little funding for me. I'll try and remain very active with them.

[b00t]

FA without booster = <3 at duals and other such mobs. I don't know about you, but I really think FA is useful. I mean, it's true, we do basically ditch it in 4th job, but it's WAY too useful until then. Maybe If you want to leech your way up, then it wouldn't be as bad. Although, I'd love to see what you do between 100 and 120. I just don't think that would be very viable. (though it IS doable)

[KajitiSouls]

For White Knights and Paladins, Advanced/ Charge Blow doesn't set off FA either. Just throwing it out there.

If you think you really can get to 4th job and not give shyt about what happened in 3rd job, by all means, go FA-less. After all, in 4th job, FA = 0 value, 0 worth.

[Obike]

Leeching.

Depends how you think of it. On one hand it is leeching, on another it's not JUST leeching. A good HS mule actually helps the person training get more exp as well, so it isn't just leeching, it is, for the lack of a better word, training. When I said that I know people that got from 5x to 8x in one night, it was a Cleric/Priest and a Bow Master. The bow master got 10% more exp from the priest (After it became a priest w/ HS) and the priest got several levels within a few hours. Of course, in the cleric stages it was just purely leeching, and for a warrior, it would most likely just be leeching, unless they somehow contribute in an arguably useful way to consider it a training party.

[EvilCowKing]

Well, here's a setup on how fast[4] is:
http://img398.imageshack.us/img398/1108/sbfafe9.png
*DPS. Multiply with your dmg-range + combo/berserk/charge multiplier to get avg DPS.

Calculating the integral of both gives SB + SB a value of 31.5972, while SB + FA is "only" 30.5955 (NB, from 1-6, not 0-6), so in theory, SB + SB is 3.27% faster than SB + FA. In theory.

(oh and yeah, SB + SB is better after 3.30878898 monsters. In theory.)

Let's see on the PS + FA vs PS + PS one, included:
http://img523.imageshack.us/img523/8726/xfaxn6.png

Integral is 32.7302 for X + X, 31.881 for X + FA. 2.6% more damage from being FA-less. In theory.

In-game, however, FA will be way, way more efficient due to the fact that you'll most likely have a majority of 1-4 mobs instead of mobs over 3 monsters big. Also, bosses anyone?

I'll work on some sader-calculations, as these consider a lot of probability to take into account.

Edit: Sader formula:

All different possibilities:
SB + SB + SB + SB + SB + FA + Coma = only one (NNNNY)
SB + FA + SB + FA + SB + FA + Coma = only one (YYY)
SB + FA + SB + FA + SB + Coma = multiple (this is YYN)
SB + SB + SB + FA + SB + Coma = multiple (this is NNYN)
SB + SB + SB + SB + SB + Coma = only one (NNNNN)

a = chance of FA
b = 1 - a

P1 = b^4 * a
P2 = a^3
P3 = (3 chance 2) * a^2 * b = 3 * a^2 * b
P4 = (4 chance 3) * b^3 * a = 4 * b^3 * a
P5 = b^5
Pall = P1 + P2 + P3 + P4 + P5

x = monsters
c = FA-multiplier
d = Slash blast multiplier
e = coma multiplier
orbs (= 5)
f = (avg) amount of seconds for FA + SB
g = amount of seconds for SB and Coma


Damage-output of all the different damages, DPS-wise:
FA + SB = A = (d * x + c * (1+(1/3)^6-(1/3)^x))/f
SB = B = d * x / g
Coma = C = e * 5.0 * x / g

DPSes:
D1 = (A + B * 4)
D2 = (A * 3)
D3 = (A * 2 + B)
D4 = (A + B * 3)
D5 = (B * 5)

Avg DPS (6 seconds):

((D1 * P1 + D2 * P2 + D3 * P3 + D4 * P4 + D5 * P5)+ Coma)/Pall

Shortened (6 seconds, still):
(a(3Aa^2 + b(3a(2A+B)+b(A(4b^2)+4B(3+b^2)))) + 5Bb^5)/Pall + C

Without FA, the damage is:

5B + C

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/5104/facomasc4.gif


I'm completely taken by your mathematical prowess! lol Kudos!

[Trystan28]

Depends how you think of it. On one hand it is leeching, on another it's not JUST leeching. A good HS mule actually helps the person training get more exp as well, so it isn't just leeching, it is, for the lack of a better word, training. When I said that I know people that got from 5x to 8x in one night, it was a Cleric/Priest and a Bow Master. The bow master got 10% more exp from the priest (After it became a priest w/ HS) and the priest got several levels within a few hours. Of course, in the cleric stages it was just purely leeching, and for a warrior, it would most likely just be leeching, unless they somehow contribute in an arguably useful way to consider it a training party.

Well, a page could. One time I went LMPQing with a couple people who were on 2x EXP so they didn't want me to kill the monsters (since we were only going after the tauromacis) so rather than just sit in room 16, I Threatened them. LOL, effectively becoming a Threaten mule. >_>

[Russt]

Making Threaten reduce 20% rather than just 20 attack would help with that. It'd be like an extra stackable Invincible.

[modular]

this thread was last active about 3 months ago guys :/

[Trystan28]

Whoops. :) Sorry!

But, more on topic, not realizing this was an old thread, I spent some time contemplating FA while I was training.
Now, I'm level 68, so not quite 3rd job, so your results may vary, but I found that very rarely was I training anywhere that the damage difference found in using SB on a mob of 5-6 really made a difference. Moreover, due to my short range compared to a Spearman, on the majority of the monsters I'm training on, I'm not getting 5-6 in a mob, either. Maybe at MP3, the initial mob on a platform might be that big, but the difference would be negligible. To me, at least, they'd die in the same number of hits. But once that big mob is gone, you're left with groups of 1-3. And at places like V/hoodoos, or even Windraiders to some extent, Power Strike is more effective. So at least, for me, Final Attack was worth maxing. And as was pointed out by others, FA won't activate on 4th job attacks, so it's really moot by then.

[D-F1am3]

With FA, i lost my KB from duals many times, because FA attacks before it's ready to be KB'd, and SB would do this often too, which sucks. But I love the extra DPS given so it's worth losing a potion here and there

[JoeTang]

With FA, i lost my KB from duals many times, because FA attacks before it's ready to be KB'd, and SB would do this often too, which sucks. But I love the extra DPS given so it's worth losing a potion here and there

You mean the extra DPS lost? Your DPS drops like a rock with FA and SB.

[modular]

Whoops. :) Sorry!

But, more on topic, not realizing this was an old thread, I spent some time contemplating FA while I was training.
Now, I'm level 68, so not quite 3rd job, so your results may vary, but I found that very rarely was I training anywhere that the damage difference found in using SB on a mob of 5-6 really made a difference. Moreover, due to my short range compared to a Spearman, on the majority of the monsters I'm training on, I'm not getting 5-6 in a mob, either. Maybe at MP3, the initial mob on a platform might be that big, but the difference would be negligible. To me, at least, they'd die in the same number of hits. But once that big mob is gone, you're left with groups of 1-3. And at places like V/hoodoos, or even Windraiders to some extent, Power Strike is more effective. So at least, for me, Final Attack was worth maxing. And as was pointed out by others, FA won't activate on 4th job attacks, so it's really moot by then.

you dont notice the difference because you havent had a chance to whack at mobs both with and without fa at a high enough level. once you get to an area where you struggle to meet the kb values, which are 10% of the monsters hp, then you will notice that the first monster dies much faster than the 6th. (ie... duals. still the best wk training in late 7x-8x). this is where you will cry about how much fa sucks with slash blast. but until you can extend the scenario to an extreme, you wouldnt notice. training in 2nd job is much much different from training in 3rd job. 2nd job is 1-2hko for max efficiency. 3rd job monsters have too high of hp to do that, so you have to go for highest possible dps.

[Stereo]

the kb values, which are 10% of the monsters hp, then you will notice that the first monster dies much faster than the 6th. (ie... duals. still the best wk training in late 7x-8x).

This only applies to KMS-origin mobs. Wolf Spiders, Himes, and the new CWK stuff all has pitifully low KB (I think himes are 600?) to the point where minimum damage is not a concern, only the speed of attacks.

And in that front, CWK is messed up anyway, because even without FA, every 2nd hit will fail to KB (and in the case of Elder Wraiths, the 3rd will fail to do damage). I have a better consistency of KB @ Bigfoot using PS+FA because it gives me more chances to KB per second.

[modular]

This only applies to KMS-origin mobs. Wolf Spiders, Himes, and the new CWK stuff all has pitifully low KB (I think himes are 600?) to the point where minimum damage is not a concern, only the speed of attacks.

And in that front, CWK is messed up anyway, because even without FA, every 2nd hit will fail to KB (and in the case of Elder Wraiths, the 3rd will fail to do damage). I have a better consistency of KB @ Bigfoot using PS+FA because it gives me more chances to KB per second.

duals are still great training for wks though, even with all the new stuff, arent they?

[Beserker101]

I'm at the point on my DEXless page where I should be saving my points for FA (currently have 15) but I am debating whether I should get FA or not. On my WK, I have seen its use and flaws so I am wondering if I should even bother this time.