Fist / Dragon Strike vs Super Transform / Demolition

[0mgP1r4tes]

In your opinion, which pair of skills is more important to max first? And why?

[Takebacker]

Honestly, i hate transform. It limits when you can and can't be at your peak, which i don't really like.

In my opinion, fist and dragon strike is more important because they replace skills and still provide enough damage output to own whatever map you're on.

[RFSurg]

Demo looks too slow and overkilly for training(though fist kind of does too). And more than bossing you'll be training so I'd guess fist & DS

[NoWaizMatt]

Fist and DS. Transform is really only used for bossing, while DS is possibly the strongest mob move in the gave, excluding ultimates.

[Worthyness]

personally i like the look of dragon strike and fist more than demo and super transform

also with stun mastery, you end up having no need for a transformed state really. It just looks cool. If i were to get to 4th, i would do fist/dragon strike first

[Worthyness]

lagg... 2x post. delete plox

[Link]

Every level, I'm going to do +2 Fists and +1 wind Booster until Wind Booster is 11 or 12, then I'm going to do +2 Fists and +1 Dragon Strike until Fists is maxed, etc.

[Schrono]

Fist until I can 100% one-hit kill whatever I'm training on(without criticals). Dragon strike to max, then super transform and demolition in a +2 +1 per level up fashion.

[0mgP1r4tes]

personally i like the look of dragon strike and fist more than demo and super transform

also with stun mastery, you end up having no need for a transformed state really. It just looks cool. If i were to get to 4th, i would do fist/dragon strike first
Except with Snatch you can stun mob then Demo them to activate Stun Mastery.....or use Shockwave if you have enough mobs piled up and stunned

[Worthyness]

I wouldn't know. I've never played a pirate before, let alone 4th job. I guess it really does depend on the skillbooks you get...

still sticking with my fist/dragon strike (I liked the name leviathan better, but it isn't leviathan looking =P)

[Takebacker]

Fist and DS. Transform is really only used for bossing, while DS is possibly the strongest mob move in the gave, excluding ultimates.

It's strong, but sure as hell isn't the fastest. ACB, pierce, and maybe even BoT outclass it.

[Devil]

Don't forget that Super Transform allows you to do Demolition AND 3rd job's Shockwave. Shockwave has almost the same power as Dragon Strike.

I think maxing Super Transform first has major advantages:
- Super Transform (2 mins) - Shockwave & Demolition
- Normal Transform (2 mins) - Shockwave
- Super Transform (2 mins) - Shockwave & Demolition
- 2 Minutes nothing (chat with friends? :P)

- Super Transform (2 mins) - Shockwave & Demolition
- Normal Transform (2 mins) - Shockwave
- Super Transform (2 mins) - Shockwave & Demolition
- 2 Minutes nothing (chat with friends? :P)

-- etc.... :)

[lord farkuad]

@ guy above me ^^^^

i think the cooldowns are linked? so you cant use them simultaneously?

[Devil]

@ guy above me ^^^^

I think the cooldowns are linked? so you cant use them simultaneously?Nope, it are 2 different skills, with 2 different cooldowns:

- 3rd job Transform = 2 mins use - 4 normal (6 mins cooldown)
- 4th job Super Transform = 2 mins use - 2 mins normal (4 mins cooldown)

So you can link them with ST>T>ST>2 Minutes "Normal">ST>T>ST>2 Minutes "Normal">etc...

[Pengysecks]

Nope, it are 2 different skills, with 2 different cooldowns:

- 3rd job Transform = 2 mins use - 4 normal (6 mins cooldown)
- 4th job Super Transform = 2 mins use - 2 mins normal (4 mins cooldown)

So you can link them with ST>T>ST>2 Minutes "Normal">ST>T>ST>2 Minutes "Normal">etc...

Are you sure? <_< I always thought Super Transform worked with Transform like Advanced Combo does with Combo. O_o

[Devil]

Are you sure? <_< I always thought Super Transform worked with Transform like Advanced Combo does with Combo. O_o100% sure, it are 2 separate -active buff skills- (like haste), unlike Advanced Combo which is passive, like Advanced Mastery for Archers / DkK's.

So with a 6 Viper Party (oh noes not again! :P)
ST (2 minutes) - 2 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 4 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 6 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 8 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 10 mins total
NT (2 minutes) - 12 mins total
ST (2 minutes) - 14 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 16 mins total
NT (2 minutes) - 18 mins total
ST (2 minutes) - 20 mins total
-repeat-

It's possible to stay Tansformed / Super Transformed 100% of the time
16 minutes Super Transform > Demolition
4 minutes Normal Transform > Shockwave

[Dusk]

100% sure, it are 2 separate -active buff skills- (like haste), unlike Advanced Combo which is passive, like Advanced Mastery for Archers / DkK's.

So with a 6 Viper Party (oh noes not again! :P)
ST (2 minutes) - 2 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 4 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 6 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 8 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 10 mins total
NT (2 minutes) - 12 mins total
ST (2 minutes) - 14 mins total
Countdown
ST (2 minutes) - 16 mins total
NT (2 minutes) - 18 mins total
ST (2 minutes) - 20 mins total
-repeat-

It's possible to stay Tansformed / Super Transformed 100% of the time
16 minutes Super Transform > Demolition
4 minutes Normal Transform > Shockwave
That makes zero sense to me, because Super Transform does essentially the same thing as Transform, but better. It even has a pre-req of 20 Transform. I believe they both operate on the same cooldown, but I'm going to wait for someone who actually has any idea what they're talking about to step in.

Even if I'm completely wrong, I'd like to use this post to tell you to shut up about the 6 Viper parties D: So unrealistic.

[0mgP1r4tes]

That makes zero sense to me, because Super Transform does essentially the same thing as Transform, but better. It even has a pre-req of 20 Transform. I believe they both operate on the same cooldown, but I'm going to wait for someone who actually has any idea what they're talking about to step in.

Even if I'm completely wrong, I'd like to use this post to tell you to shut up about the 6 Viper parties D: So unrealistic.
They dont operate on the same cooldown. Fiel himself said they are completely seperate skills

And why do you have to hate on him so much?

[Dusk]

They dont operate on the same cooldown. Fiel himself said they are completely seperate skills

And why do you have to hate on him so much?

Because he's been talking about 6 Viper parties and infinite Transform for months, with no regard to how hard it is to get 6 HP-washed Vipers with max Super Transform and Time Leap in the same party, how hard it would be to get them to coordinate their STs and TLs perfectly, and how a 4 NL/BM/DrK party would probably outpower that anyway. And he still hasn't fixed his DPS thread so archers and DrKs still look underpowered. Other than that, I don't see how I'm hating on him at all. Just two things that bother me.

And my bad, so I was wrong.

[0mgP1r4tes]

Because he's been talking about 6 Viper parties and infinite Transform for months, with no regard to how hard it is to get 6 HP-washed Vipers with max Super Transform and Time Leap in the same party, how hard it would be to get them to coordinate their STs and TLs perfectly, and how a 4 NL/BM/DrK party would probably outpower that anyway. And he still hasn't fixed his DPS thread so archers and DrKs still look underpowered. Other than that, I don't see how I'm hating on him at all. Just two things that bother me.

And my bad, so I was wrong.

Id think having atleast 1 Viper added to the traditional Bossing party would help enough

[Devil]

Because he's been talking about 6 Viper parties and infinite Transform for months, with no regard to how hard it is to get 6 HP-washed Vipers with max Super Transform and Time Leap in the same party, how hard it would be to get them to coordinate their STs and TLs perfectly, and how a 4 NL/BM/DrK party would probably outpower that anyway. And he still hasn't fixed his DPS thread so archers and DrKs still look underpowered. Other than that, I don't see how I'm hating on him at all. Just two things that bother me.

And my bad, so I was wrong.If you have any comments on the calculations in the DPM thread, feel free to post the mistakes there! :)

And have you ever heard of the terms "in theory" and "for example"? I was only using them to show you that you can use the transform skills independently...

Oh yeah, and don't take things too seriously please? :P

[ahoboandahal]

It's strong, but sure as hell isn't the fastest. ACB, pierce, and maybe even BoT outclass it.

BoT is one of the fastest and best mob moves in the game.

[Dusk]

If you have any comments on the calculations in the DPM thread, feel free to post the mistakes there! :)


I did, I said you should use average instead of max damages.


BoT is one of the fastest and best mob moves in the game.
Yes, in 3rd job. In 4th job it's outclassed by pretty much every mob skill.

[SasukeJnr]

Personally I prefer Demo than fist coz it's more flashy :f2:.
Anyway I hear that fist is quick in damage but doesn't do as much as demo whereas demo hits harder than fist but it's slower in damaging enemies am I right?

[Russt]

Demo is a single-target skill with an ultimate-length animation, basically. I haven't actually seen Fist in action so I don't know what it's like.

[JoeTang]

Demolition stuns so you don't have to prestun for Criticals.

[Takebacker]

BoT is one of the fastest and best mob moves in the game.

I was talking damage, not speed. I know full well how fast BoT is, seeing as i had a CB.

It's not the best mob move in the game. We all know ultimates are. Other then that, there's ACB (you can't possibly beat 350% damage on 6 monsters with 90% change of uninterrupted stun). Major downside with BoT as an AoE move = you have to hit the monster to use it.

[Dusk]

Demolition stuns so you don't have to prestun for Criticals.

Does it really? It doesn't have a listed stun rate, so is it 100%? Would it never crit on the first hit on an unstunned monster or boss?

And there's more than ACB and ultimates that outclass BoT Faster (2) on 6 targets.

Inferno (282% per neutral target/Fast (4) or Faster (3) speed/slightly lower base damage)
Arrow Rain/Eruption (292% per target/Fast(4) or Faster (3) speed/slightly lower base damage)
Dragon Fury (500% per target with Berserk/wide range of possible speeds/much higher base damage)

Might be a few more I neglected to mention.

[Takebacker]

Demolition does not stun...

[Russt]

Does it really? It doesn't have a listed stun rate, so is it 100%? Would it never crit on the first hit on an unstunned monster or boss?

And there's more than ACB and ultimates that outclass BoT Faster (2) on 6 targets.

Inferno (282% per neutral target/Fast (4) or Faster (3) speed/slightly lower base damage)
Arrow Rain/Eruption (292% per target/Fast(4) or Faster (3) speed/slightly lower base damage)
Dragon Fury (500% per target with Berserk/wide range of possible speeds/much higher base damage)

Might be a few more I neglected to mention.
Pretty much everything.
Avenger (345% per target/Faster (2) speed/much lower base damage)
.....Slash Blast + 10 orbs (247% per target/Faster (3) or Fast (4) speed/higher base damage)
Keep in mind Brandish far outclasses SB, and Avenger has a set range...

[Takebacker]

I wasn't really trying to list all the skills that outclass BoT. xD Just trying to show that it's not the best, yet perhaps stronger than dragon strike.

[0mgP1r4tes]

Demolition stuns so you don't have to prestun for Criticals.
Demolition doesnt Stun, you need to use Snatch to stun during Super Transform

[JoeTang]

Major downside with BoT as an AoE move = you have to hit the monster to use it.
What the pineapple is that supposed to even mean? You have to hit a monster with any AoE to use it.


Does it really? It doesn't have a listed stun rate, so is it 100%? Would it never crit on the first hit on an unstunned monster or boss?
Logically speaking, it would start Critical chances after the first hit connects, since the skill takes well over one second to complete and start again. It as a 100% rate with 1 second duration. You can't stun a boss.


Demolition does not stun...
Yes, it does.

Demolition doesnt Stun, you need to use Snatch to stun during Super Transform
Yes, it does.

[Takebacker]

What the pineapple is that supposed to even mean? You have to hit a monster with any AoE to use it.

Lightning, ice strike, arrow rain/eruption, blizz/meteo/genesis, and explosion (just to name a few...) don't require you to HIT a monster for the attack to execute. You can spam away at all of those without worrying about whether or not your hit landed. Either you misread what i said, or you don't know how BoT works.


Yes, it does.

No it doesn't... (http://www.mncast.com/player/new_fullPlayer.asp?movieID=10091592220080608163518&lp=-1&chkNum=1)

[Russt]

A better way of explaining would probably be that BoT works like Inferno rather than having a set range like Thunderbolt. It swings your dagger and if the dagger hit makes contact, the hit area is centered around the "impact". If it doesn't make contact, BoT never happened.

[Takebacker]

A better way of explaining would probably be that BoT works like Inferno rather than having a set range like Thunderbolt. It swings your dagger and if the dagger hit makes contact, the hit area is centered around the "impact". If it doesn't make contact, BoT never happened.

Rather, you just lost MP.

[JoeTang]

To be honest, nowhere in that video does he ever hit a Skelegon that he hasn't already Snatched, so there is no proof there. It's supposed to stun, hence the 1 second duration and stun listed in the data.

[Russt]

So what's the point of Snatch there in the first place?

[Takebacker]

To be honest, nowhere in that video does he ever hit a Skelegon that he hasn't already Snatched, so there is no proof there. It's supposed to stun, hence the 1 second duration and stun listed in the data.

I wasn't entirely sure if that was the video i wanted or not. Regardless, it doesn't stun. Take dae's and my word on that. Either way, demo is so strong you tend to ohko everything anyway.

[Fiel]

The stun is listed in the data for demolition. I just didn't notice it to put it in the skill tables.

[JoeTang]

It does raise the question as to if the stun actually does work If it does, why has there been no word on it? I have never seen Demolition actually stun a monster, but the data is evident that it has the parameters to do so.

[0mgP1r4tes]

It does raise the question as to if the stun actually does work If it does, why has there been no word on it? I have never seen Demolition actually stun a monster, but the data is evident that it has the parameters to do so.
The data says Transform and Super Transform are supposed to give a STR boost, but they dont

So who knows? In all the videos Ive seen, I have never once seen Demolition stun a monster

[Takebacker]

Because there aren't any videos where demolition has to be casted twice to kill a stunnable monster. xD

Having demo stun makes no sense. There's almost no point in snatch if it could.

[JoeTang]

Snatch is a spammable mob skill that stuns. How is there no point to that?

Have someone check if their damage range changes after they transform.

[Link]

Snatch is a spammable mob skill that stuns. How is there no point to that?

Have someone check if their damage range changes after they transform.

It doesn't. I'm a level 110 Buccaneer with level 15 Transform. My damage range stays the same the entire time.

[Takebacker]

I'm not entirely sure if snatch is spammable...

[JoeTang]

Hm. Well, it does have a slight cooldown, but you can hit up to six monsters, and drag them towards you while stunning them. How would that not be useful if Demolition could stun?

[Takebacker]

Forget it.

[Dusk]

Hm. Well, it does have a slight cooldown, but you can hit up to six monsters, and drag them towards you while stunning them. How would that not be useful if Demolition could stun?

Because Demo would automatically stun whatever the hell you're attacking. Stunning the rest of the monsters would not affect your damage, it would only keep them in place while you're using Demo on each individual monster.