Internet helps speed maturity.

[chrome]

This is like, my first totally serious post in a while. <_<

Anyway, I've discussed this in IRC before, and my question is: Does involvement in online communities and exposure to the commons of the internet help speed up maturity? Below are my examples.

First of all, out of personal experience, I have found myself to have matured profoundly over the last four years (I know what you're thinking already, this will be mentioned at the bottom of the post). I believe that my mental development was partly influenced by my exposure to the internet (leetspeak, 4chan, memes, all that). At first, I was illiterate. Eventually I learned about leetspeak, and abused it HORRIBLY. Then came memes. After that, I reached the point where I began typing with correct punctuation and for the most part correct grammar, but only because other people were doing it. This was the cause of my abuse of leetspeak, memes, and several other things like what music I listened to, etc; because other people were doing it. I know, this is common for someone in their early-mid adolescence to do. But now, at the age of 17, I type how I want (i normally type like this outside of forums, i just try to make my posts grammatically correct), I listen to the music I actually like, and basically, I'm independent. I started observing this about two months ago, in July, two months before I turned 17.

Now, my main obstacle and the thing that will probably overrule all this that I just bothered to type: The likely cause of this was just the state of adolescence, the internet just happened to be a coincidence.

Yes, that is what I believe REALLY is the cause, but if I'm right in that huge paragraph I just typed, then I might be going somewhere. This thread is open for discussion of what I just typed. I'll answer any questions, I guess.

EDIT: I also realize that another problem with this is that I only have examples from my perspective.

[Russt]

I can't say, really. I wouldn't consider myself mature yet. I'm still... relatively young. It's certainly exposed me to a lot of miscellaneous stuff that I wouldn't've known or cared about otherwise, though.

I actually think that the reverse case is more likely. As you become more mature, you migrate away from chtspk and memes.

[Sign]

How co-incidental :)

I used to feel strongly about the exact same thing - well, not exactly the same. (I've never been into 4chan.) But for a while there I did earnestly and honestly believe that the internet had been terribly good for me and helped me lots with various things I felt I was "immature" at.

Perhaps I'm getting old, but now that I look back, I can see that at that 17 year old stage I was also motivated to defend my use of internet, and that "need" to justify myself, even if I didn't admit its existence, may have somewhat biased my thinking. Again, looking back, I realise that even though I thought I matured, it wasn't as dramatic as I thought - nowhere near.

If the thought is flicking on the edge of your mind too, I'll be absolutely brutally frank, I think internet does bias us a little. For some reason people seem less mature, for whatever reason, and we sometimes get tempted into thinking "wow I'm so much more mature than that person even if we're the same age." That's something we'll never know for sure.

There remains to be elaborated my endlessly fascinating (at least, to me) observation that people are simply obsessed with language, especially written language (in this case, typed), and especially, with how other people use it. Everyone in the world, it seems, gets annoyed by other people typing in caps or missing out punctuation, or using a comma splice. Or a fragment. For that matter. :). Well-formed grammar seems to be valued so much on the internet, so much as to affect how you, Ben, view me, Sign. With some interest I'm also noticing how you have observed your written language, and your grammar, as well as your nicely capitalised and paragraphed post. And I'm thinking, actually, yeah, wow, this really is a way we measure maturity. Language and grammar really is, at least psychologically, important to us.

Just an interesting observation that flashes in exciting pretty lights "RESEARCH TOPIC" to me every time I see it. :o
You sound like a very thoughtful and reflective person, regardless of your other, quote-unquote "non-serious" posts. Thanks for your thoughts.

[Russt]

There remains to be elaborated my endlessly fascinating (at least, to me) observation that people are simply obsessed with language, especially written language (in this case, typed), and especially, with how other people use it. Everyone in the world, it seems, gets annoyed by other people typing in caps or missing out punctuation, or using a comma splice. Or a fragment. For that matter. :). Well-formed grammar seems to be valued so much on the internet, so much as to affect how you, Ben, view me, Sign. With some interest I'm also noticing how you have observed your written language, and your grammar, as well as your nicely capitalised and paragraphed post. And I'm thinking, actually, yeah, wow, this really is a way we measure maturity. Language and grammar really is, at least psychologically, important to us.

Just an interesting observation that flashes in exciting pretty lights "RESEARCH TOPIC" to me every time I see it. :o
ive realized dat too..

isnt it amazing how simple spelling n punctuation can chng how u view sum1 so dramaticly???

I've encountered that a lot. Some perfectly literate guy posts in a thread writing in the most horrid of chtspk, and I just automatically assume he's too dumb to type any better or even understand what I'm saying unless I make special effort to make myself as readable as possible. And then someone chastises him on his typing, and he improves for the duration of one post... and it makes all the difference in the world how I view him.

[psychopat]

I would actually argue the opposite.

The internet grants people relatively high levels of anonymity. A rather large portion of people choose to abuse it to be "someone else", whether it be by being a smartass, a bully, a troll, etc. These are all things they wouldn't do in real life because the consequences are much more evident. The prevalence of sayings like "lolz it's just the internet" and such only serves to hide behind the screen in order to try to "validate" immature behaviour - the behaviour that they'd do in real life if they knew could get away with it.

At the same time, I think it's obvious that there is less respect for others online. It seems as though being online fosters a sense of entitlement and an inflated ego in several posters/gamers/etc... The internet is (for the most part), a cesspool for immaturity :-/ At least, the areas of it that most teenagers frequent are.

Of course, it's not all bad. It does facilitate learning, research and several other "mature" things to do. I say this as I have a wide grin on my face while checking the NYSE:C stock :glitter: Made 50% in 2 days :heart:

[WiseAlon32]

hmm.. i know it made me much more mature.
i dont act mature most of the time though, cuz i choose not to...

oh and im not talking about language or anything, people who think language has anything with maturity is an idiot IMO, and if it depended on me, i would execute them ALL. :f5:

(see, i choose not too :D)

[Dusk]

I think the maturity you've gained has more to do with your real-life experiences and aging than simply being on the Internet. The Internet seems to turn teens who are perfectly tolerable, maybe even fun to hang out with in real life to annoying douchebags. Even adults act a lot less mature on the Internet than they do in real life. As psychopat mentioned, it's the anonymity that lets them do whatever they feel like doing. In real life, you can't get away with harassing the hell out of people like it happens on the Internet. You go to court for that. The Internet would be much nicer place if everyone could see the person on the other side of the computer.

Unless you haven't been outside in years, I would say your attribution of your growing maturity to the Internet is wrong. You can and do become more mature through real-life peer interactions. When you were twelve, you could do stupid pumpernickel, and people will pat you on the back and you'll have a good laugh. When you do the same stupid pumpernickel now, people will say, "What are you, twelve?"

On the subject of chat speak, I absolutely hate it. It is one of the worst things ever adopted by the public. People think it's cool and that they're being savvy by replacing for's with 4's, your with ur, and misspelling pumpernickel all over the place. I've watched friends who are perfectly intelligent and literate in real life log onto their Facebook or whatever, and start typing sentences like "omg did u her about radiohead coming to atl?" And I feel extremely tempted to hit them. People who actually spend time on the Internet browsing forums and doing more nerdy things generally accept that typing with complete sentences and using proper spelling and grammar like you learned in school, or at least trying your best, is easier on the eyes and makes you sound more intelligent.

of course, when I'm on AIM or MapleStory or IRC or some other chat program, i'll disregard capitalization for the sake of speed. and
sometimes
i'll talk in
fragments
to avoid dying.

But seriously, it does not take a lot more effort to type "your" instead of "ur." Especially on a forum, where you're hardly limited by time at all.


(see, i choose not too :D)
See, your use of the wrong "to" and your crappy syntax and lack of punctuation make you seem less intelligent than you probably are. You can only "be mature" and act immature most of the time if you choose when you act immature wisely. And I don't know, but your use of "most of the time" has me worried.

[wobbufet]

Internet helps speed immaturity too.

[DrRusty]

I'm not sure about speeding maturity, but it definently helps with learning a thing or two.

Example. My g/fs 9 year old brother has been playing MS and other MMOs for the last 2 years on and off. Because of his constant interaction with older people, he has developed a much better literary understanding of what he's saying or wanting to say. He's in elementary school, but he has the literary capacity of someone in high school, and can even teach them a thing or two.

Not only that, but he can type faster than every person in the school, including the teachers.

[WiseAlon32]

See, your use of the wrong "to" and your crappy syntax and lack of punctuation make you seem less intelligent than you probably are. You can only "be mature" and act immature most of the time if you choose when you act immature wisely. And I don't know, but your use of "most of the time" has me worried.

now, i can see how making spelling and grammar mistakes can make you think a person is less intelligent than he catually is, but only when he's having those in every word/sentence...
if someone double clicks the "o" button accidently, i wont think he's some neaderthal. >_>

and im mature when im required to or when i should, and most of the time, i dont.
we probably have different terms of im/maturity though.

[Sign]

EDIT: WiseAlon - yes! Absolutely!

I agree with every aspect of your first paragraph, Dusk. I agree that maturity comes from normal developmental milestones through childhood/adolescence (what you call "aging" - I tend to use it a bit differently is all), and interacting with the world. I think that if that interaction comes from internet sources, then they'll make you mature too. The difference is that there's a limit on how closely that interaction that can resemble real life interactions, and thus actually have an effect on maturity.

I also agree that people act less mature on the internet than real life, creating the impression of a younger, less restricted community :)

xkcd 438 comes to mind too :o

Regards your second paragraph, I agree that the fact that it's the internet doesn't really change the maturity "curve." However I think you can have emotional and interpersonal experiences on the internet too. Yes, there are a million social nuances such as "uncomfortable silence" and "nervous giggle passed off as a real one" which are lost in the online interaction. That doesn't mean there is no effect on the person in shaping their opinions, mindsets, beliefs, emotions, attitudes. All those things don't equal maturity, but they do contribute to it.

Dusk, thank you for your thoughts :) I raised this issue earlier because I thought it would stir up strong opinions in other people - and my hunch was correct! Your third paragraph is a perfect example of how very preoccupied everyone is with language, especially that of other people (I detailed this in my first post in this thread). I say that completely forwardly and in all openness. It seems humans are hardwired to obsess over language.

I'm going to use an example, I hope you don't mind. Keep in mind I don't think you're wrong - I just wanted to show how completely normal this is.

Dusk said he "absolutely hate"s chat speak. That's a very strong expression. It reflects great, intractable annoyance that no one could prevent no matter what they said. Well, we wouldn't tell the most annoying person in the class that we "absolutely hated" them. We wouldn't even tell the meanest teacher that we "absolutely hated" them. Chat speak is worse than those, something that REALLY gets Dusk, and other people, pissed off.

People might think of the internet exaggeration argument that Dusk detailed. However, it sounds like the sort of thing people would be quite happy to say to a friend in real life as well as online, so it doesn't really apply here. My proposition is that we are, fundamentally, completely obsessed with language, and in this modern day, particularly written language. If someone makes a long online rant about not liking school, and they use abbreviations such as "chat speak," people will sooner comment on their chat speak than their situation (which probably affects their educational progress as well as emotional and social wellbeing more than their online abbreviations). It would take something much more drastic, like an intensely emotional recount of domestic violence, to make people focus on the topic rather than their spelling or grammar.

It's not callousness on the part of everyone, and especially not you, Dusk. I think it's simply us being hardwired to react to whatever language use we understand. And that leads me to an obvious/not-obvious conclusion: if everyone is hardwired to become aware of their and other people's language, it can't be a measure of maturity. It's not proof of maturity/immaturity either way. There might be a correlation, but it's just not an accurate measure.

Yeah, I'm a little obsessed with language too. :K. Thanks again for everyone's thoughts.

[Flonne]

The internet as a research method only? Sure.

Everything else? No, no, no. One of two things will happen to people when they excessively use the internet as a social tool. One, they will become a selfcentered, immature, sub-intelligible blob. Examples of such are people who use myspace, gaia, or /b/ frequently. After they exit this phase of their life (if they ever), they will maintain their selfcentered attitude for much of the rest of their lives, and will most likely die happy because they are ignorant of how utterly useless they were in life, and how much suffering they wrought on others in order to please themselves. The second group are the people who end up like me; manic-depressive, cynical, frozen-hearted assholes who look down on the rest of society and only see their many flaws. Every time when walking outside, it is physically painful to observe other people going about their daily lives, blissfully ignorant of what the OCD people like this go through.

Either way is NOT the correct way to mature; one leaves you as a child for most of your life, the other leaves you a husk of your former self, filled only with hate for others. Of course, these are the extremes of the spectrum, for people like me who are online every waking hour of their lives, but the fact remains that society has taken to a disturbingly downward spiral in it's social networking skills. You need only look at me to confirm that, I suppose.

[Sign]

The internet as a research method only? Sure.

Everything else? No, no, no. One of two things will happen to people when they excessively use the internet as a social tool. One, they will become a selfcentered, immature, sub-intelligible blob. Examples of such are people who use myspace, gaia, or /b/ frequently. After they exit this phase of their life (if they ever), they will maintain their selfcentered attitude for much of the rest of their lives, and will most likely die happy because they are ignorant of how utterly useless they were in life, and how much suffering they wrought on others in order to please themselves. The second group are the people who end up like me; manic-depressive, cynical, frozen-hearted assholes who look down on the rest of society and only see their many flaws. Every time when walking outside, it is physically painful to observe other people going about their daily lives, blissfully ignorant of what the OCD people like this go through.

Either way is NOT the correct way to mature; one leaves you as a child for most of your life, the other leaves you a husk of your former self, filled only with hate for others. Of course, these are the extremes of the spectrum, for people like me who are online every waking hour of their lives, but the fact remains that society has taken to a disturbingly downward spiral in it's social networking skills. You need only look at me to confirm that, I suppose. Hi Flonne, thanks for being so open with your thoughts. I know how you feel, because I also felt the same way (oh, it sounds trite, but it's so true.).

I'd love to encourage you to take hope in the future though. I don't know your story of course, but I get the impression there are actually not too many people who stay that way for the rest of their lives. As we get more mature, we learn to do something about our situation and not just think "omg, I'm a crap person." I think there's often some sort of breaking point situation where we realise that we just have to grow up and try and do the hard yards. And though it might never be exactly like the development of a person who has never touched internet, that's ok. Regardless of their experiences, by and large, people learn to be at least functioning adults in the adult world.

And, for the record, not only do I doubt that there is only one way of maturing, I also think none of us will ever stop maturing - we will never be "mature." It's a continual process. No one, whether they're in your school, at university, or on this forum, is fully "mature." And I guess those of us who are less mature than others should be able to take comfort that the ones who are more mature will understand what they are going through, because they must have been through it themselves.

[IsaacGS]

(BTW, this is the kind of thread I wanted to see here!)
I would be willing to disagree, but I think it's not going to be the same for everyone. I do, however, have a basic rule which I believe to be the truth of the internet:


The role you take on in an internet community is a direct reflection of your true self.


I suppose you could generalize this even further to "any pseudonymous environment."

By this, what I essentially mean is that given the "anonymity" (In fact, pseudonymity, except in rare cases like 4chan which is a whole other issue) that there are certain roles which people can take. There are people who are kind-hearted and interested in helping others, like Sign here. There are people like myself who are interested in learning information and dispersing it to others. Even more, there are people who merely come on to collect information and use it themselves, perhaps leaving an empty "thanks" or an otherwise minor comment, and then head off on their way. There's several other good or decent types, but I'm sure you get the point.

And then, there are people who troll forums, bait people for flame wars, and generally act like asshats. These are the people you need to watch out for. They may not (Openly) behave in such jerkish manners in the real world, but it's there, lurking at the depths of their personality, waiting for a moment of weakness to pounce out and overtake them. They vent this online where they feel like they won't have to take responsibility for their actions. Fortunately for us, there are also people who have the ability to make them do so (At a forum I used to go to, one of the Admins was a pro hacker and whenever someone would harass a younger member he would track them down and call their parents, LMAO!). If you know these people in your real life for a long period of time, you'll surely see it in them. They probably go online and troll because they're too scared to bully in real life. Still, they need an outlet for these frustrations and this is how they do it. More than likely if they didn't have the internet they'd just abuse their wives, girlfriends, or children, and failing all of that, animals. I suppose you could make an argument that everyone does this once in a while, and that's fine, but here I'm talking about people who do this chronically. Multiple-offenders.

How does this apply to the thread? Well, for the latter group, and the people who are only interested in obtaining information, they're obviously not going to mature at all through this. However for other groups, they very well might mature through their experiences online. More than likely, the kind of people who are going to take up a positive role wouldn't have had very much fun in their teen years without the internet around. They're already not good at social interaction, but the pseudonymity of the Internet allows them to relax a bit and become themselves. If they didn't have access to the internet, then more than likely they would have been unhappy in their schooling because they don't have the skills required to make friends.

It can be harmful for some and helpful for others, but I believe the internet does a lot more good than harm.

[Kawasari Mimoto]

I think differently than most other people, but I'm serious when I say that I personally think that the internet can have an affect on people. Why? Because I myself have experienced or went through a change, which doesn't necessarily mean that every other person will experience the same, but it's just what I experienced.

When I was in my preteen years, I used to be like those kids that types and completely abused "lol!" and 1337-speak. I could care less about grammar back then.. now, I do. Because as I grew up and realized that in order for people to take me seriously, I have to type and act seriously. Also, these people on the internet aren't robots.. they're actual, living people. That's what I've learned as I interacted with the internet-community. Sure, most adults in our current generation would say "Talking with strangers on the internet is bad", but is it really any different than approaching a random person in real life and starting a conversation? To me, it isn't, aside from the fact that you get to see their appearance.

You can also judge a person's level of intelligence and maturity judging by how they react to situations on the internet, and how they type too. Which isn't always true for everyone, but most of the time, it is imo. One can express themselves better on the internet as well. What a person wouldn't normally do in real life, sometimes, they tend to express themselves a lot better on the internet.

I'm sure from experiences, people grow and they change ; From experiences, people mature and move on with their life and remember the things that made them change as well.

I actually consider some people that I met online as really close friends, even if I don't chat with them for a while, I try to check up on them every once or so to see how they are doing. So by interacting with others on the internet, believe it or not, a person can mature more. This is the real world, afterall. Whether it be the internet, or not.

[Arrg]

Since I have been on the internet, my grammar and spelling have grown exponentially, as well as my vocabulary and my view on taking responsibility. But I act immaturely often around my friends. I like to think I have grown in maturity. I act elitist at some times, and I don't realize it.

[Morgana]

I think the internet exposes everyone's maturity as independent from their age, and that can be a really good thing to learn for life.

I'm 20, and I've had internet friends that are 13 or 40, people I would never interact with in real life, that at first glance I would dismiss. When I was 17, one of my best internet friends was a 12 year old from Australia. She is the same age as my sister, who at the time I barely talked to without being awkward. Over the internet, it doesn't matter. You can focus on what someone is saying rather than how they look. I'm not trying to say that I'm ageist, just that we're more or less hard-wired to seek out our peer group, and this is stronger the younger we are.

As for the internet's effect on maturity itself... Well, I was already pretty mature when I joined it at 13, and I've pretty much always typed the way I do. I'm consciously trying to quit using emoticons so much, even though I love them... But that's a habit the internet obviously got me into in the first place.

[Derimed]

The internet in my opinion has nothing to do with maturity. As some here have said, the internet grants nearly complete anonymity, which allows a person to continue his current behavior without any incentive to change it. Leetspeak and poor grammar have nothing to do with maturity; I am 27 years old, I could write a nonsensical post in l33t, and that doesn't change who I am. I CHOOSE to write in full sentences because I feel like it, though on Maple I never do so.

A person's identity is changed and shaped by the real world. Even if you are cooped up in your house with your parents and siblings, that's still more substantial human interaction than what you'll get on the net. When you go to school and work, that's also substantial human interaction. But any way you put it, there must be CONSEQUENCES to your behavior before you learn anything from it. If there is no punishment or reward, you will remain the same; and if you remain the same, your maturity cannot be influenced. I mean, look at me with a straight face and tell me the /b/tards in 4chan would actually talk like that in the real world. They'd get pounded into the pavement before they finished their first sentence, and that would be what they'd deserve.

As for internet friends... I know it's possible to meet friends or a significant other on the net; in practice though, most internet relationships are very informal, and do not last. Most people I know on the internet would not be willing to talk to me on the phone, much less meet in person, and people are more willing to do thoughtless and stupid things to other people on the internet than in real life. I am not saying there are no quality people on the internet, but sifting them from the trash is even harder than in real life.

[Cybuster]

Internet, speeding maturity?

Hahahaha, no. Pull the other one, it has bells on. No, really.

All the internet does it make it easier for you to be a jerk and dodge taking the resposibility for your actions.

I can't really articulate my thoughts right now, else I'd add more to this >_>;;

[whybanme]

I began using the internet (GameFAQs message boards, MSN messenger) when I was 12 years old. I made a group of older internet friends and when I look back at some of the conversations, it makes me cringe. My grammar, my lack of capitalization and scarcity of puncuation was appalling. I started playing online games around 13 which I think helped me get a better sense of spelling things normally instead of internet-style (you instead of u and proper capitalization). I joined a clan which exposed me to things no young child should be exposed to such as talk of illegal drugs, sex, etc.. I was also exposed to memes, YTMNDs, 4chan.... I was still young but I think hearing these things helped me mature and the internet has definitely made me "smarter" than most of my peers. I know more common information and have more common sense than a lot of kids in my school. I've been using the internet constantly since I was 14; I'm now one month shy of 17 and I wouldn't go back and change a thing. I'm glad I was born in the age where kids could access the internet because I wouldn't be who I am now without it.

[Berzerk]

You story is exactly like mine. I started out knowing absolutely nothing about how to type, then over time I learned how to type using "pls" as "please". Then I started to integrate that stupid "1337speak", which when I look back at it was completely retarded. Then as time progressed further, I began to type correctly then started to use punctuation. When I started to get a little more social online (ie; Forums, MapleStory, Chat rooms) I cared how I presented myself to others, which led me to wanting to spell and use punctuation correctly.

When I look back, the Internet IS what made me today. As funny as it sounds, it's true. Without it I'd see myself as a completely different person. So yeah, I do believe the Internet will speed up maturity. A lot of people that already posted bring up tons of excellent examples that I agree with, but some others I disagree.

It's actually kind of funny, I would get to know my friends on MapleStory, we'd exchange names and that was usually it for awhile. Then, after a few months they'd as my age. I swear, most people thought I was older than 20 because of my spelling, punctuation and how I act. The thing is, people thought I was 20 when I was 15. Now at the age of 16 I actually think I'm very mature. Granted, I do have those moments where you let loose and have fun with everyone, but don't we all? :D

[IcyGreenTea]

I hate cht spk and 1337. I started using the internet when i was 12(been a decade), and ever since the beginning I had typed in full sentences. I don't think Internet helps with maturity, because you are not actually interacting with the person you are communicating with face to face. You would not know how to judge a person by the way they speak/"act" on the internet, and if internet is the only source of interaction, you may lack the ability of such when you grow up and needing to go into the real world. You can be anyone on the Internet, so can everyone else. If they think I am immature (which happens a lot on MS, and it's pretty funny because they r typn lik tis), but i don't care. People judge you by the way you form sentences and maybe by the way you structure your argument when you debate something. Like a lot of people stated before me, people behave like idiots on the net because they can't do it in real life without dire consequences. I sometimes troll for fun too, it's for when I don't feel like acting too seriously, and I let my inner child come out and play... in the cyber world.

On the flip side, lots of kids are writing in cht speak on their school assignments due to the influence of the internet chatrooms/forums/online games, it is observed everywhere in the world. So it is in a sense, degrading the languages and hindering the learning of the proper form of native language of the child. Chinese for example, have a lot of words that sounds the same but has different characters and has different meanings according to the characters, so to make a post readable in Chinese, you have to choose the appropriate character when you type. Recently I took a look at the biggest Chinese forum online and I observed people not using the appropriate characters for the entire post, in which case could be easily read only if you read each word out aloud, only then it would make sense. I think children should not have free access to the internet at very young age, as it would be harmful.

My 2 cents.

[FinalHeart]

I personally believe that since I have joined my first forum with intelligent people (forum.nexon.net) I have matured a great deal. I still goof off a lot, but when I'm serious, I am about twenty times more mature than most people I know. Not to brag or anything.

[Acim]

Yes, I believe it does. I joined my first forum around the age of 11 (I know, too young, I don't care) and starting playing games online with other people around the age of 10. By the time I was twelve, I was much more mature than other family members when they were twelve. It's even made me type better, if involvement in online communities is what caused that. Two years ago I was typing "omg lol u nub. LAWL XDXD u lose", and since then I've improved a lot. At one point, I was even saying "lol" and writing "u" instead of actually laughing and writing "you". I feel so pathetic. Being involved online, if not being teased or hated, exposes you to more mature subjects and more mature (and immature) people, and you begin to understand more complex things.

...