Something I never quite understood...

[butterfλi]

The hybrid hero. In my years of playing, it's always been looked down upon since there are no benefits to being a hybrid hero unlike hybrid dks. Maybe except for being 'unique'. however i propose a hybrid hero build anyway but the heroes ive seen still say it's not a very good build.

In the fighter stages, you have maxed sword mastery, FA, pg, booster, rage. The standard crusader build looks like

70-100: max combo(30), sword panic(30) and coma(30).
100-120: max shout(30) and relax(20).


But what i propose is:

the fighter build stays standard (maxed sword mastery, FA, pg, booster, rage)

but the crusader builds looks like

70-100: max combo(30), sword panic(30) and coma(30).
100-120: max axe mastery(20), max axe booster(20)

This build sets up a 'standard' build for sword fighter and crusader by 100 but instead by 120, the hero has both sword and axe mastery and booster. through the levels 30-100, you're still the same as any sword crusader; have mastery, booster, FA, combo, etc.

Relax just saves mp. A little mp saved isnt so bad but it's the same argument for magicians: drop mp eater or not. some mesos saved is some mesos earned but it seems irrelevant to save 30 mp (60 mesos) every 10 seconds you're taking 3k+ damage training in leafre.

Aside from stunning goby houses and questing, I rarely see crusaders use shout. the popular training places such as himes, and wolf spiders, shout actually slows down training.

the less-to-no usage of relax and shout lead me to propose the build of dropping both those skills and build a (pointless) hybrid hero. now, im not trying to encourage people to use this build nor am i trying to find alternative builds such as dropping rage or FA. im just curious to why this particular build is considered bad.

[Stereo]

With max Relax, I'm not using MP pots at all training (granted I use Ginseng so I do get some MP back every time I heal HP). It's just a bit of extra inventory space I guess.


I guess it would be considered bad because you only lose skills, don't gain anything.

[RFSurg]

The problem isn't as much of a build problem as it is a weapon problem. Axes just aren't as good, brandish or no brandish.

[Firefux]

lawl, ironic as I'm in the process of making a Hybrid hero with a friend starting today, cept we planned on a build way different than yours.

[JoeTang]

There is absolutely no advantage with using an Axe.

[Firefux]

There is absolutely no advantage with using an Axe.

Still fun to play with now and then, and of course fun scrolling with really cheap supplies, not to mention Nexon did mention that they'd look into boosting the axe/BW people sometime in a Q&A, so who knows, they could overpower the hell out of axes or something like every other thing they end up screwing up.

[Stereo]

lawl, ironic as I'm in the process of making a Hybrid hero with a friend starting today, cept we planned on a build way different than yours.

Yeah, but if you go axe first (normal hybrid build) there's at least an advantage, in that Axes are stronger in 2nd job due to better scrolling. By the 110+ where this build makes Axes available there's such a huge gap between them that scrolling can't fix it.


I have a hybrid Fighter but I'm not gonna recommend it as better, I'm just doing it for a change of play. My other Warriors all had FA in 2nd job so far, so I'm skipping it this time.

[Dusk]

Unlike spears and polearms, which have unique advantages that will make one or the other (not both) preferable at the best training spots, swords and axes do the same damn thing. Axes have slightly more swing damage and a lot less stab damage, but since none of your skills actually forces one attack or the other, the distinction is pointless. This is merely "for fun." If you really like axes and don't mind inferior damage in the endgame (I find that axe fighters tend to be stronger at lower levels because the scrolls are cheap enough for us to scroll much better weapons), go Axe. Otherwise, go Sword.

On second thought, there is one single advantage to this build. The entire market of Fighter/Crusader/Hero weapons is open to you. But this is silly. To actually take advantage of that situation, you should start your build with axes and add in swords in 3rd job. It would be better on your wallet to scroll a couple of godly low level axes for less than 100m, and then to switch to an endgame-level sword.

[butterfλi]

This is merely "for fun."

yeah, thats what i said lol. i wasnt planing on making a hero since i no longer play. i was just wondering that if a hybrid hero can be pulled off -efficiently-, why not go hybrid? (because no one ever goes hybrid)


I have a hybrid Fighter but I'm not gonna recommend it as better, I'm just doing it for a change of play. My other Warriors all had FA in 2nd job so far, so I'm skipping it this time.

i have no opinion on FA since i never played a 3rd job warrior. in 2nd job, i found it annoying. randomness and especially when it triggers after a monster dies. i dont know how efficient it is in charging orbs though. in 2nd job, things die in 2 hits. 80-100 at dual ghost pirates, a crusader will probably be 5+ hitting them so it might be more useful for orb charging there but i have no experience.

[Hero]

Axes are superior until 4th job. Before, swords already won around ~110/115 because gobies was the best place to train and swords would 1hko the goby mobs more consistantly.

[DrRusty]

the lunchboxes will make a hybrid hero even more pointless than it already is

[Stereo]

i dont know how efficient it is in charging orbs though.

It's helpful enough (with max combo/coma) that Slashblast+FA+Coma is stronger than Slashblast+Coma, even counting the fact that sometimes you take 6 attacks before you can coma. For WKs and DKs, Slashblast+FA is always weaker than Slashblast on mobs (it's actually stronger against single targets... but Powerstrike wins there).

[Firefux]

the lunchboxes will make a hybrid hero even more pointless than it already is

If they were tradeable, for sure, but for the most part, many people have missed a day or 2, and are unable to get it, so it's not that big of a deal so far.

Anyways, I was planning on going axe mostly til 4th job, then converting to 1h sword most likely, so it's not like I'd be way weaker anywhere along the way really, and playing around with different gear is always fun.

[Kawasari Mimoto]

The only slight advantage is that Axes are cheaper toscroll, but damage-wise, they fail in comparison to Swords. Not dissing Axes though, just comparing the two. If I was a Hybrid Hero, as a Sader, I'd go Axe before Sword because of the prices to scroll an Axe, not very much in comparison to Sword scrolls in Scania. But I'd go Sword later during 4th for it's damage. That's how I think anyways, but everyone tends to think differently.

Axe for 3rd (cheap scrolling)
Sword for 4th (power, nuff' said)

As for builds itself, no point in using both Axe and Sword, lol.

[Dervish]

Axes are not superior to swords, ever. The damage you lose out on due to stabs won't be made up by scrolling, especially since nobody scrolls axes in second job, and they're completely worthless in third.

The trek from 43 to 64 is so short that the 43 maple weapons might as well be worthless as well, with the Rohan existing, and past that you get into the levels where you use Coma. Stabbing with a Coma or a Panic is a no-no, even moreso than usual.

The only time axes could really be useful is the pre-second-job levels, where your damage is so unstable that the stabs hardly make any difference anyway.



To sum it up, axes are god-awful and no amount of scrolling will ever make them anything but, especially with Brandish.

[butterfλi]

Axes are not superior to swords, ever. The damage you lose out on due to stabs won't be made up by scrolling, especially since nobody scrolls axes in second job, and they're completely worthless in third.

The trek from 43 to 64 is so short that the 43 maple weapons might as well be worthless as well, with the Rohan existing, and past that you get into the levels where you use Coma. Stabbing with a Coma or a Panic is a no-no, even moreso than usual.


i thought the 'balance' was that for levels <120, you have a great chance of doing a slash or swing rather than stab? since there are two slash animations but only one stab animation, that puts axes in the advantage that 66% of the time, they have a chance of dishing out bigger numbers.

of course brandish screws that up and pure axe and hybrids gets made pointless altogether. this is, as mentioned before, experimental, for fun, unique, be cool, etc. it has no function though. my i/l dropped cold beam and has maxed slow in the second job. slow is useless for i/l. with or without freezing. it just makes my i/l different from others but it really has no function.

[Firefux]

i thought the 'balance' was that for levels <120, you have a great chance of doing a slash or swing rather than stab? since there are two slash animations but only one stab animation, that puts axes in the advantage that 66% of the time, they have a chance of dishing out bigger numbers.

of course brandish screws that up and pure axe and hybrids gets made pointless altogether. this is, as mentioned before, experimental, for fun, unique, be cool, etc. it has no function though. my i/l dropped cold beam and has maxed slow in the second job. slow is useless for i/l. with or without freezing. it just makes my i/l different from others but it really has no function.

It's all just for fun and variation in the end, at least that's my reason for making one really.

[Dervish]

i thought the 'balance' was that for levels <120, you have a great chance of doing a slash or swing rather than stab? since there are two slash animations but only one stab animation, that puts axes in the advantage that 66% of the time, they have a chance of dishing out bigger numbers.


Yes, sure, but this is MapleStory and percentages like that mean nothing, because the worst possibility tends to happen the most often, regardless of the 'actual' probability. This is the reason why 70% scrolls with their chance of breaking that is roughly the same rate as the success-rate as 10% scrolls break more than they work. Or so it seems, anyway.

And two, three, or four slashing PSes won't make up for that one stabbed Coma.



my i/l dropped cold beam and has maxed slow in the second job. slow is useless for i/l. with or without freezing. it just makes my i/l different from others but it really has no function.


Er, actually, dropping Cold Beam in favour of slow is by far the preferred build now. Cold Beam having more than the required end-of-job points is absolutely useless in the scheme of things, due to more than one point in it not having anything to do with the length of freezing and due to the fact that none of the best training areas make use of maxed Cold Beam, either. Slow on the other hand, works on non-immobile bosses. Now which sounds more appealing to you?

[Stereo]

i thought the 'balance' was that for levels <120, you have a great chance of doing a slash or swing rather than stab? since there are two slash animations but only one stab animation, that puts axes in the advantage that 66% of the time, they have a chance of dishing out bigger numbers.

In theory, but they didn't make slashes proportionally stronger like stabs are weaker.

4.8 slash vs. 4.6 slash
3.4 stab vs. 4.6 stab

You have a 60% chance to do 0.2*str*atk/100(*mastery*0.9 min) more damage, and a 40% chance to do 1.2*str*atk/100 less damage. That doesn't work out to a positive amount.

[butterfλi]

Er, actually, dropping Cold Beam in favour of slow is by far the preferred build now. Cold Beam having more than the required end-of-job points is absolutely useless in the scheme of things, due to more than one point in it not having anything to do with the length of freezing and due to the fact that none of the best training areas make use of maxed Cold Beam, either. Slow on the other hand, works on non-immobile bosses. Now which sounds more appealing to you?

I can tell you that slow is equally useful... or as equally useless as cold beam. Pap is so easy to pin in kb with 4th job, practically any 4th job character can pin it. Tengu moves so fast it feels almost the same as if it wasnt slowed. so comparing it to cold beam isnt very different to comparing to dropping shout. no cold beam means being forced to train on mobs till around late 10x where you have a decent 1v1 attack.

[Dervish]

I can tell you that slow is equally useful... or as equally useless as cold beam. Pap is so easy to pin in kb with 4th job, practically any 4th job character can pin it. Tengu moves so fast it feels almost the same as if it wasnt slowed. so comparing it to cold beam isnt very different to comparing to dropping shout. no cold beam means being forced to train on mobs till around late 10x where you have a decent 1v1 attack.


Slow is still more useful than Cold Beam. Something that gets used rarely will always be better than something that never gets used, especially when the thing that never gets used was never useful to begin with.

I concede that it's a bit less useful than it was before now, because Slow was particularly more useful pre-fourth when it was much harder to just pin it to the wall,, but you never know when Nexon'll release something else like Bigfoot where Slow can indeed be useful again.

As for the last bit of your comment... if you're not training on mobs after 7x, you're seriously doing something wrong. Especially if you're using CB at that level. Something horribly, horribly wrong.

As for dropping Shout... Shout actually has its uses, even if it's just using it while training in third job at Gobies, or spamming it at Leprechauns. You can alwyas find some use for utility skills like that, but when looking at CB, you'll really never use it again after you hit third job for anything other than freezing a single enemy until you get Comp, and even during second you won't be training with it. Just, again, using it to feeze, or unnecessarily picking off a single enemy once in a while that you could just lure with Claw and mob.

[Silver_ice]

I can tell you that slow is equally useful... or as equally useless as cold beam. Pap is so easy to pin in kb with 4th job, practically any 4th job character can pin it. Tengu moves so fast it feels almost the same as if it wasnt slowed. so comparing it to cold beam isnt very different to comparing to dropping shout. no cold beam means being forced to train on mobs till around late 10x where you have a decent 1v1 attack.

wut about anego?


id say about the hybrid hero. it looks fun both being able to utilize a sword and an axe. id rather drop FA and get pts into shield mastery if u go 1handed, it takes off like 500+ dmg and if u do end up getting blocking its even more helpful.

[Stereo]

pts into shield mastery if u go 1handed, it takes off like 500+ dmg and if u do end up getting blocking its even more helpful.

Maxed shield mastery, with the highest def shield currently available, scrolled for defense, will reduce about 80 additional damage (shield itself would reduce 80 so 160 total...). That's over a shield scrolled for attack, which it will do approximately 8 damage reduction. But you get 15+ extra attack.

[Dusk]

Axes are not superior to swords, ever. The damage you lose out on due to stabs won't be made up by scrolling, especially since nobody scrolls axes in second job, and they're completely worthless in third.

The trek from 43 to 64 is so short that the 43 maple weapons might as well be worthless as well, with the Rohan existing, and past that you get into the levels where you use Coma. Stabbing with a Coma or a Panic is a no-no, even moreso than usual.

The only time axes could really be useful is the pre-second-job levels, where your damage is so unstable that the stabs hardly make any difference anyway.

To sum it up, axes are god-awful and no amount of scrolling will ever make them anything but, especially with Brandish.

Nobody scrolls axes in second job? I beg to differ. I scrolled my 86/11 Maple Dragon Axe for less than 5m. I'm going to scroll an even better Demon Axe when my Fighter reaches that level. Let's see what kind of sword you can put together for less than 50m mesos.

Axes > Swords in 2nd job, assuming you are not ridiculously rich and you can't afford to scroll a godly version of every weapon from 10-120, and you aren't so poor that you can't afford axe scrolls o_o

[modular]

were certainly riled up about this for once :P

butterfli, your build is pointless because by the time you max axe stuff, you will only ever use swords. if you actually worked for lvl 120 (and say... didnt leech), youd realize in your training that swords are simply superior, just like dks dont use a polearm at skele or a spear at himes. and once you get brandish, youll only use axes to show off, not to train.

if you switch swords and axes in your build, i would say its viable. but its still pointless, since shout and relax ARE nice skills to have and youre hurting yourself by not using swords until 4th job / near 4th.

(i really regret not maxing slow on my fp. im considering replacing element amp w/ it so i can spam meteor if i ever get to 4th. and making up the damage with an elemental weapon. not sure its a good idea. but then again ive gone from 78-82 in the last 3 years after not getting mist first since ludi wasnt out at the time.)

[butterfλi]

butterfli, your build is pointless because by the time you max axe stuff, you will only ever use swords. if you actually worked for lvl 120 (and say... didnt leech), youd realize in your training that swords are simply superior, just like dks dont use a polearm at skele or a spear at himes. and once you get brandish, youll only use axes to show off, not to train.

yeah if i actually trained, played, and experienced my crusader to 120 and didnt leech my way there, all this wouldve been clear to me. but of course, that can only be said if i even had a level 10 swordsman in the first place :P

[Nikkey]

Nobody scrolls axes in second job? I beg to differ. I scrolled my 86/11 Maple Dragon Axe for less than 5m. I'm going to scroll an even better Demon Axe when my Fighter reaches that level. Let's see what kind of sword you can put together for less than 50m mesos.

Axes > Swords in 2nd job, assuming you are not ridiculously rich and you can't afford to scroll a godly version of every weapon from 10-120, and you aren't so poor that you can't afford axe scrolls o_o

Your total weapon attack as an axe user must be 10% higher than a sword warrior's total weapon attack. Then your damage is estimated same damage with the sword (prob is STR and such you gain from scrolling the sword). That is, if the weapons have equal speed.

I'm not sure, but I assume that most axe warriors will deal lower damage at these levels due to this.

[Dusk]

Your total weapon attack as an axe user must be 10% higher than a sword warrior's total weapon attack. Then your damage is estimated same damage with the sword (prob is STR and such you gain from scrolling the sword). That is, if the weapons have equal speed.

I'm not sure, but I assume that most axe warriors will deal lower damage at these levels due to this.

If what you said is true, then you need a 78 att Zard to match my axe. And you don't get the +32 accuracy bonus. Absolutely freaking positive that a 78 Zard would cost more than 5m. What kind of maple sword would compare to my axe?

[Stereo]

Maple Swords really can't compare easily... they are faster and go with a shield. It would definitely need to be about 90-100 total attack though (shields cost a lot though).


The speed is really nice though, I have done 2nd job purely with the level 43 Maple Sword (scrolled +7 60% on a good clean one fortunately) and due to being able to stay lower dex it is very decent in comparison to normal dex 2h'd.

[modular]

actually in terms of dps an 80 maple soul singer would be about the same as a 78 zard / 86 2h axe. and those are probably pretty expensive too >.<

to match a 78 zard per hit, you would probably need 88~90 att in a shield/sword. and then your dps is a lot better.

it only gets wayyyy exaggerated at 1xx lvls when the .6 difference in the str multiplier cant be made up for with a *little* bit of extra attack. but fast5 1h swords only need about 103% of a 2h normal6 swords att to match in terms of dps.

[fiftyschmooo]

Ya.. Zenkat had did a whole bunch of calculations with Axes and swords and for his Damage Per min with Brandish he needed to have a whole bunch more Atk on his axe then any sword user (i think my basic liek +4 str Stonetooth had the same DPM as his Axe which was leik +13 str or something? (neglecting speed 100%) so his delemiah was that he could never be the strongest Beran Hero no matter how much he upgraded his equips (specially with a certain highest level Heros ... uber 100% cant be hacked "legit" Stonetooth sword.. ) i thikn thats a main reason for losing one of the best Beran Heros :( .. kinda off corse but ya.. I wouldnt go hybrid.. Shout is very usefull even if your not using it 100% like @ Gobbies back in the day, but its rather useful all around for its stunning ability when you least expect it.. (yay for talking in a mob after stunning)

[kleptophobia]

Yeah, I'm sorry to say but my rage-less hybrid theory was shot down (after NLC arrived). I didn't listen and my brother made a crusader anyways (hybrid). He doesn't suffer too badly, but there is never any circumstance that he'll use his axe any more (after 90). There is little benefit after the low(er) levels and yep. Coincidentally the exact opposite is true for ass-dits, you lose nothing (too important) when going hybrid (albeit much earlier).