Bow/Xbow speeds

[Technolink]

Well I can say I've always been that skeptic guy. I could never believe that Nexon/Wizet/Whoever would make bows and xbows fire at the same speed, but alas, its true.

Kev frapped a ranger and a sniper (normal/booster) shooting. I then extracted the sound from that clip (no BGM) and put it into audacity to see a visual representation. Clipping a little at the beginning, I was left with easily identifiable shots.

From there, I just connected the first bow shot to the first xbow, etc etc, and both ended up having the same amount of shots in the same amount of space. My end results were between 82~84 shots per minute, but that's not what I was looking for, I was just seeing if they fired at the same rate.

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/6892/proofsx9.png

WHY NEXON WHY!!!!

[Russt]

I think it's their idea that the unobtainable Akhamagna makes it fair.
...

[Technolink]

...

I digress, WHY NEXON WHY!!!!

[randompeep]

Originally Posted by Russt~

I think it's their idea that the unobtainable Akhamagna makes it fair

but Akhamagna does not increase bow speed. I think Isaac put it up somewhere.

[Russt]

Isn't it Fast(5)?

Even if not, it's 90 attack 70 str req and better than Xarumagna in every way. Thus they believe it's fair.

That, and a better FA (which hardly anyone gets), a decent lurer and forward area mobber (Inferno, which hardly anyone gets), and a slightly longer PKB range (which hardly anyone cares about).

[Retalion]

Originally Posted by Russt~


but Akhamagna does not increase bow speed. I think Isaac put it up somewhere.

Im not sure about bow speeds, but its proven that bow speed does not affect Hurricane, the main 4th job attacking skill for bow masters. Strafe and everything else is affected by shooting speed so Im guessing that's what you're talking about.

Regardless, the Akhamagna's attack/str qualities makes it a bow worth using regardless in my opinion.

[JoeTang]

Night Raven's Eye
Bowman only - Crossbow
Req Level: 90
Req STR: 70
Req DEX: 280
Weapon Attack: +90
DEX: +4
Knockback: 50%
Fast(5)
7 slots

[tzk221]

Night Raven's Eye
Bowman only - Crossbow
Req Level: 90
Req STR: 70
Req DEX: 280
Weapon Attack: +90
DEX: +4
Knockback: 50%
Fast(5)
7 slots
Have you even seen one yet? They're as rare as a pineapple under the sea.

[Russt]

Nor have I seen an Akhamagna, and they've been technically out for months.

[Kevvl]

*sigh*

It's been like this since the Leafre patch came out....I'd hoped they'd fix it by now. Whether it is intentional, or not, I wish it wasn't true.


Oh, and if anyone wants the videos, I gottem. Frame by Frame, anyone? =P

[Dusk]

I, and countless other archers, have already tested this. This only reaffirms that the two classes attack at the same speed with all 1st-3rd job skills. The figure is a lot closer to 84 than 82, I always find it to be nearly 84. The accepted number right now is 83.7, which is the same as all other normal weapons (with booster).

[Kevvl]

Just another confirmation then? I kinda figure that since they were fixing all the other glitches, why not retest?

[Dusk]

Just another confirmation then? I kinda figure that since they were fixing all the other glitches, why not retest?

Well, it's not a glitch. Bows weren't meant to be faster than Crossbows to begin with. Unless they planned to make more Fast (5) bows before they released the level 40-100 bows. The belief that bows are faster than crossbows stems from two things:

1. Crossbows have a slower initial attack animation, and the first shot always comes out later.
2. People think that because crossbows are stronger, bows have to have some intrinsic speed benefit for balance. It is not a speed vs. power issue for 1st through 3rd job. It is a power+ice vs. stun+fire difference.

[Kevvl]

I think it stemmed from the fact that before Winter (Around the Leafre Patch), Bows fired at 88 SPM, while Xbows fired at 82.


At 88 and 82 SPM, the DPM of the 2 is nearly equal. It may not be a glitch, but it wasn't the original intention.

[Russt]

Nexon website. Guide > Game Library > Character > Bowman.


They use bows, which may not have the power of a crossbow but is much quicker in general, as the main weapon of choice.
It may be weaker than the crossbow, but it's so quick, you'll be able to hunt swiftly. (...)


They use crossbows, which may not have the attacking speed of a regular bow but is much more powerful in general, as the main weapon of choice.
It may be slower than the bow, but it's so powerful, it can go through any monsters one may see. (...)

So basically, they pineappled up from the beginning.

Yes, I realize that the class descriptions on the main site have remained unchanged since the beginning of the game, and the game's progressed significantly by now (psh, they say clerics don't have attacking spells!), but you can tell they obviously intended crossbows to be slower at one point.

[Beaner]

well, in 4th job marskmen get kicked in the testicles. i dont see why complain about strafe when only we use it till forever.

[Sn1perJohnE]

im not sure about this test. Just because the sounds equal out to the same amount of shots/minute, I had did a personal test with normal attacks with no SA/booster and using an Fire Arund and a Casa Crow. The difference in the arrows i had left after 1 minute (timed on my cellphones stop watch) that there was no room for them to even be close to the same fire rate.

Now, if this was done with strafe, it needs to be noted, as many say that with strafe there is no firing difference, that it is the same shot/minute. Also said, is that the point in the animation at which the arrow fires from the bow and the xbow is different.

optimisim aside :O i really do like the way you planned to settle this debate :@

[Dusk]

im not sure about this test. Just because the sounds equal out to the same amount of shots/minute, I had did a personal test with normal attacks with no SA/booster and using an Fire Arund and a Casa Crow. The difference in the arrows i had left after 1 minute (timed on my cellphones stop watch) that there was no room for them to even be close to the same fire rate.

Now, if this was done with strafe, it needs to be noted, as many say that with strafe there is no firing difference, that it is the same shot/minute. Also said, is that the point in the animation at which the arrow fires from the bow and the xbow is different.

optimisim aside :O i really do like the way you planned to settle this debate :@

That sound test is a hell of a lot better than your reaction time. Reaction time + unintentional bias can throw off your results by as much as 3-4 shots.

Also, Strafe, Double Shot, Normal Arrows, Arrow Blow, Arrow Bomb, Inferno, Blizzard, and possibly Iron Arrow (needs confirming, since I didn't use it much when I was playing a friend's Sniper) all shoot at the same speed.

Russt, they gave us more fast bows in the beginning. I guess they forgot to continue the trend, or decided bows had advantages elsewhere to make up for the power loss.

[Nikkey]

That sound test is a hell of a lot better than your reaction time. Reaction time + unintentional bias can throw off your results by as much as 3-4 shots.

Yeah, human flaws greatly increase the possibility for wrong calculations. By doing this, the only flaws and mistakes in the timing would be human misreadings and computer/connection lag.

[psychopat]

While I haven't played a hunter in ages, I remember thinking they had it way easier in 2nd because of the faster shots (in a lvl range where both classes train in 1hko areas), as well as being able to stun. In 4th, there's no comparison because of Hurricane...

So snipers have a slight power advantage in 3rd... That's 50 levels. You guys have it for 30-70 and 120+. That's 120 total levels and probably 95+ % of the total playing time, considering the exp-per-level curve. Why are you guys the ones complaining instead of the other way around? :f6:

[LazyBui]

Bow

Hurricane
Faster (3): 120ms
Fast (4): 120ms
Fast (5): 120ms
Normal (6): 120ms

Strafe/Arrow Rain/Inferno/Arrow Bomb
Faster (3): 660ms
Fast (4): 720ms
Fast (5): 750ms
Normal (6): 810ms


Crossbow

Pierce
Faster (3): 720ms
Fast (4): 840ms
Fast (5): 870ms
Normal (6): 930ms

Strafe/Arrow Eruption/Blizzard/Iron Arrow
Faster (3): 690ms
Fast (4): 720ms
Fast (5): 780ms
Normal (6): 840ms

Don't need to play with sound. Tick counts are transmitted to the server on use.

[Nikkey]

May I ask where you got those values? They seem to fit my values, and if they're extractable, is there any list containing all the values?

[LazyBui]

They were calculated from the tick counts transmitted to the server when you use skills.

There's probably an indicator in the data somewhere regarding the skill's interaction with weapon speed, because it isn't a uniform increase/decrease even within the same skill, let alone between different skills.

My guess is that they just modify the delay of the skill by however many ms based on weapon speed. Maybe there are different classes of modification too, as some skills are obviously different from the norm.

[Kevvl]

Russt, they gave us more fast bows in the beginning. I guess they forgot to continue the trend, or decided bows had advantages elsewhere to make up for the power loss.

'ey Myst, like I said earlier, before Leafre, Normal speed (6) Bows Fired at 88 SPM, and Normal Speed (6) Xbows fired at 82 SPM.


They changed it for some reason.



Oh, and IA fires at the same rate as every other skill in our arsenal.

[Nikkey]

They were calculated from the tick counts transmitted to the server when you use skills.

Oh, so they were calculated.

You can still use several skills in a row (at least for warriors) when you're lagging though, so the monster doesn't die in an instant and it takes like, 3-4 hits when it's supposed to be dead. Does this affect the values you just gave out?

[LazyBui]

Oh, so they were calculated.

You can still use several skills in a row (at least for warriors) when you're lagging though, so the monster doesn't die in an instant and it takes like, 3-4 hits when it's supposed to be dead. Does this affect the values you just gave out?Since my lag to 127.0.0.1 is 0ms, no.

[Sn1perJohnE]

That sound test is a hell of a lot better than your reaction time. Reaction time + unintentional bias can throw off your results by as much as 3-4 shots.

I hold no bias. As for the reaction time, i have very quick reactions. Also, with a difference of 4 arrows, with no boost, it is not easy to throw out my test, which was done after leafre came out.


Also, Strafe, Double Shot, Normal Arrows, Arrow Blow, Arrow Bomb, Inferno, Blizzard, and possibly Iron Arrow (needs confirming, since I didn't use it much when I was playing a friend's Sniper) all shoot at the same speed.


As i said before, if this test was done with strafe or any skill, it should be noted, as people throw whether or not strafe/other skills have the same fire speed as their counterpart weapon. Also, booster needs to be off for the test, as this affects the speeds.


Yeah, human flaws greatly increase the possibility for wrong calculations. By doing this, the only flaws and mistakes in the timing would be human misreadings and computer/connection lag.

for human flaw, refer to other quote response. For the connection, whether on dial up or high speed T3 connections, the animation and lag dont come into play, as if a shot is shown in the animation, there is a a message sent to the server saying that so and so action has been performed, in which a message is sent back to tell that 1 arrow has been used. These messages stack, eliminating the factor of lag.

[Technolink]

Bow
Strafe/Arrow Rain/Inferno/Arrow Bomb
Fast (4): 720ms

Crossbow
Strafe/Arrow Eruption/Blizzard/Iron Arrow
Fast (4): 720ms

Don't need to play with sound. Tick counts are transmitted to the server on use.

I never knew about the tick counts, but thanks for enlightening us. But as you showed, my sound was correct, they are shooting same speed normal + booster. 83.333 spm. The other ones are interesting, as some people are using fast lvl 64 x/bows now, but still, they will switch to normal ones eventually.

That's so strange though, bows seem to be 30ms less then xbows in all categories except normal+booster. That's so friggin strange.

All of our fast x/bows are Fast(5) right? That leavs bows at 90.9spm and xbows at 86.95spm for fast+booser

@Above, I'm sure you did your test as accurately as possible, but now we have sound analysis and server 'ticks' showing the same speed for Fast(4) which is Normal(6)-Booster(2)

[LazyBui]

That's so strange though, bows seem to be 30ms less then xbows in all categories except normal+booster. That's so friggin strange.It is. What I'm more curious about is how the speeds go from 810 - 750 - 720 - 660, those are differences of 60ms, 30ms, 60ms. I'm wondering if it alternates every other or what, because that strikes me as odd.

Incidentally, most of the speed labels have two integers associated with them.. maybe certain weapon speed increases aren't as worthwhile, hence why boosters aren't -1 weapon speed class.

Thinking about it in that way, it would make sense for it to alternate, because then all boosters are equal at a 90ms boost.

In any case, I think it's safe to conclude that somewhere, something is broken.

[Technolink]

I like the alternation idea, but xbows is 60-60-30. I think it makes sense for it to be 60ms each time, but they didn't want the fast ones to be too fast.

As for bows, that makes 0 sense whatsoever, it needs to be fixed. Otherwise it throws the near-perfect class balance into chaos.

[KaidaTan]

I'm not sure if you answered this question LazyBoi, partially because I'm far from a computer god. But how exactly did you get these "tick counts" and calculate the exact speed that things fire at with them? I think the would be incredibly useful for say.... everything else. (I'm rather interested in Pirates at the moment, so I'd like to know Cannonball and Demolition, for example.)

[Russt]

Presumably has to do with the packets that the client sends when you attack.

I also think it'd be "incredibly useful for everything else".

[Sn1perJohnE]

Presumably has to do with the packets that the client sends when you attack.

I also think it'd be "incredibly useful for everything else".

if in packet form, then yes. The times come from the delays between the sending of each piece of data to the server and the response received from the server: Button pressed>>packet sent to server>>response received>>etc.

The packets also stack, so if you happen to have delays between action, the information will stack while there is a delay and correct itself when your connection catches up.

[Arbazo]

LOL tech out of all the people who'd come up with a way of determining this it would BE you. GJ i like the easy to follow graph.

[LazyBui]

Bui, actually.

I'll spend the majority of today producing attack speed numbers. Should be interesting.

[Nikkey]

It is. What I'm more curious about is how the speeds go from 810 - 750 - 720 - 660, those are differences of 60ms, 30ms, 60ms. I'm wondering if it alternates every other or what, because that strikes me as odd.

Incidentally, most of the speed labels have two integers associated with them.. maybe certain weapon speed increases aren't as worthwhile, hence why boosters aren't -1 weapon speed class.

Thinking about it in that way, it would make sense for it to alternate, because then all boosters are equal at a 90ms boost.

In any case, I think it's safe to conclude that somewhere, something is broken.

the speed increases more when it is from one speed version to another.

E.g. Normal(6) to fast(5) is a bigger step than fast(5) to fast(4).

The thing is, there is no normal(7). That's slow(7), and slow(8), slower(9) (then probably slower(10) and slowest(11))

This only matters for people using slow(7) weapons obviously. Beheader would gain a greater difference than a sunrise or a berserker.

For xbows though, it doesn't seem to make sense.

[Dusk]

Bow

Hurricane
Faster (3): 120ms
Fast (4): 120ms
Fast (5): 120ms
Normal (6): 120ms

Strafe/Arrow Rain/Inferno/Arrow Bomb
Faster (3): 660ms
Fast (4): 720ms
Fast (5): 750ms
Normal (6): 810ms


Crossbow

Pierce
Faster (3): 720ms
Fast (4): 840ms
Fast (5): 870ms
Normal (6): 930ms

Strafe/Arrow Eruption/Blizzard/Iron Arrow
Faster (3): 690ms
Fast (4): 720ms
Fast (5): 780ms
Normal (6): 840ms

Don't need to play with sound. Tick counts are transmitted to the server on use.

Ah. If those values are correct, that would explain why Sn1perJohnE found bows to be faster without booster. I've never tested without booster. The only value screwed up in this scheme would be Fast (4) for XBows, which should be 750.

Did you round these values at all, or were they the actual output? I had assumed it was based on frames, but in a programming perspective, this makes more sense.

Then again, the ticks shouldn't perfectly match up with what you see. They should be rounded to the frames that are displayed, so you won't always take the same amount of time to attack.

Also, goddamit, I guess Hurricane is really 500/min, not whatever I said.

[summer]

Also, goddamit, I guess Hurricane is really 500/min, not whatever I said.
i told you so =)

oh also what's the tick count for Triple Throw and Lucky 7?

[Dusk]

i told you so =)

oh also what's the tick count for Triple Throw and Lucky 7?

We know those to be 100/min at Fastest (2), so that would be 600ms per attack.


'ey Myst, like I said earlier, before Leafre, Normal speed (6) Bows Fired at 88 SPM, and Normal Speed (6) Xbows fired at 82 SPM.


They changed it for some reason.



Oh, and IA fires at the same rate as every other skill in our arsenal.
Thanks for the tip on IA. But no, they did not go through the data and change all the attack speeds in the Leafre patch. I tested it before Leafre. It's always been the same with normal bows with booster, which is the only value 99% of archers are interested in.

[Technolink]

To get the ms value to shots/minute, just divide 60 by it and times it by 1000 (ms->s)

(60/720)*1000 = 83.333 atks/min.

(60/120)*1000= 500 atks/min (hurricane).

And I like my sound graph, its easy to follow =P

[summer]

well the sound graph isn't that exact tho

what i mean is... it's not a uniform wave that has precise frequency

[Nikkey]

i told you so =)

oh also what's the tick count for Triple Throw and Lucky 7?

It would make sense if the times were:



Fastest (2): 600ms
Faster (3): 660ms
Fast (4): 720ms
Fast (5): 750ms
Normal (6): 810ms
Slow (7): 870ms
Slow (8): 900ms
Slower (9): 960ms

[Technolink]

well the sound graph isn't that exact tho

what i mean is... it's not a uniform wave that has precise frequency

It pretty much is. Every shot's wave is fair the same, though xbow's wave and bow's waves are different. It doesn't much matter, all you need to see is they both fired the same amount in 28 seconds. On the pre-leafre speeds you'd clearly see the bow almost 3 shots ahead at this point.

[JoeTang]

Values for Normal (6) without Booster, Fast (5) with and without Booster plx.

[Technolink]

They are posted Joe. Normal (6) w/o booster is just normal (6)

Fast 5 with is Faster(3), fast 5 w/o is fast 5

[JoeTang]

You've confirmed it?

[Russt]

Edit: Nevermind, didn't check general training grounds.

[Technolink]

I thought it was fact that booster moves it down 2 incrememnts.

And yea, it pretty much is. We were using Normal(6) + booster and I said its between 82~84 spm, and Fast(4) is 83.333 spm.

[Dusk]

You've confirmed it?

Look at the data. Booster is -2 on all weapon ratings.

[JoeTang]

I was asking about whether or not Normal (6) for a Bow is the same as Normal (6) for a Crossbow and such, because it wasn't always.

[Russt]

It's not. Fast (4) is the only one that's the same.

[KaidaTan]

LazyBui, is it possible for you to tell us the attack speed of every attack in the game? Either that, or tell us how to find them out ourselves. This seems like an invaluable resource that we should use to our greatest advantage.

EDIT: Nevermind. It seems you've already done this in the Training Center. Great job btw ^_^