What a NL can expect after BB patch.

[Kalovale]

HOLY CRAP THE TAG SUCKS @@@@

Originally, I wanted to compile a list of all the prevalent changes a NL should expect after the patch goes live. Somehow I got drawn into this. Anyway, I'll edit the thread with the original information/request later, for now, if you're bored, please proofread this for me. :D
I'm not familiar with NL so this took quite a bit of research/organizing. Go easy on me please. :ohno:



Pre-BB:
TT damage formula: LUK * 5 * Skill% * ATK/100

Max non-crit TT10 damage: 679*5*1.2*162/100 = 6599
=> 3299~6599 TT10 range
=> AVG non-crit dmg: 4949

Max crit TT10 damage: 679*5*162*(1.2+1.1)/100 = 12649
=> 6324~12649 TT10 crit dmg
=> AVG crit dmg: 9486

=> AVG damage per star: 4949*0.4 + 9486*0.6 = 7671
=> AVG damage per TT10+SP: 7671*3*1.5 = 34519

Post-BB:
- Reg Max Dmg: 1.75*(4 * LUK + DEX) * (Weapon Attack / 100)
= 1.75*(4*679 + 165)*(162/100) = 8167
=> Reg Dmg Range: 5308~8167

- Non-crit TT10 Range: A * 1.9 multiplier (TT10) * 0.9 (Mob damage penalty)
=> 5308~8167 * 1.9 * 0.9 = 9076~13965
=> AVG non-crit dmg per TT10+SP: 11521*3*1.5 = 51844

Criticals: 60% chance to do 135~150% dmg (142.5% crit dmg on average)
=> AVG crit dmg per TT10+SP: 51844*(0.65*1.425 + 0.35) = 66166

WITH SE: Average crit bonus becomes ((135 + 180)/2)% at 85% chance
=> AVG crit dmg per TT10+SP+SE: 51844*(0.85*1.575 + 0.15) = 77182.755

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/6149/dmg.png

================================================== ===============================================

Miscellaneous changes

1/ [B]Shadow Shifter: +15% activation rate at all levels (1 point in SS at early NL-hood suddenly becomes useful).

2/ Shadow Resistance: +10% MaxHP(?), +20% Elemental Resistance (less dmg at Pap/HT heads)

3/ Avenger:
Damage formula change:
Old: Max = (Luk*3.6 + Dex) * (WeaponAttack / 100) = A
New: Max = 1.75*(4 * LUK + DEX) * (WeaponAttack / 100) = B
A/B = 3.6/7 (approximately; Dex didn't and won't matter significantly for a rough estimation) = 51.43%

For Avenger, not only does the SkillDamage% get boosted two-fold, your damage range also goes up twice as high, resulting in a damage output almost 4 times as high as previously is pre-BB. New Mastery is also better, 65% vs. 54%.

4/ Taunt: Since you now mob, it could be possible to integrate Taunt into your training style more fluidly.

[MorbidMagus]

How much DPS would the Nightlord have pre-bigbang with SE? or is that already included?

And Thorns works for all classes/stacks with SE now?:f2:

Very impressive bonus, a nearly 100% increase in DPS without SE/Thorns is nothing to look down on.

[Kalovale]

How much DPS would the Nightlord have pre-bigbang with SE? or is that already included?

And Thorns works for all classes/stacks with SE now?:f2:

Very impressive bonus, a nearly 100% increase in DPS without SE/Thorns is nothing to look down on.

I didn't include SE in pre-BB calculations (because I'm unsure my post-BB one is correct), which is why I highlighted the non-SE'd ones. I'll do it later for kicks and giggles, I guess. Currently working out the general reasonable expectations for the damage increase, since the dmg formula gets changed around a bit, this can only go by estimations.


I believe only the chance stacks, not the damage.
I wasn't expecting them to stack either way.
With Thorns30: 80% Crit chance at 150~150% Crit damage
With SE30: 80% Crit chance at 120~180% Crit damage

This is with Critical Ring btw.

[MetaSeraphim]

And Thorns works for all classes/stacks with SE now?:f2:

I believe only the chance stacks, not the damage.

[Dusk]

SE and Thorns boost different parts of critical damage post-BB, so I don't see why they wouldn't stack. Can't confirm though. Either way, neither skill is really worth talking about or including in your damage. It's not like pre-BB where you do 10k without SE and 15k with. Every class gets a 10~15%ish damage boost from max SE.

[Alloy]

SE and Thorns boost different parts of critical damage post-BB, so I don't see why they wouldn't stack. Can't confirm though. Either way, neither skill is really worth talking about or including in your damage. It's not like pre-BB where you do 10k without SE and 15k with. Every class gets a 10~15%ish damage boost from max SE.

What I find more interesting is that damage becomes more stable with thorns, and the higher the critical chance, the better. My point of view would be to aim for 100% critical rate, or attempt it.

ALSO, anyone mind telling me what's decent sharp eye's effects after Big Bang?

[Kalovale]

Judging by TT's skilldamage% differences:
Old formula: (100 + level*2)% from level 1 through 20; (100 + level*2+1)% from 21 though 30.
New formula: (160 + level*3)% from level 1 through 30.

I'm generalizing that: the ratio Old:New starts out at 102/163 = 62.58% and linearly increases to 140/220 = 63.63%, then linearly decreases to 150/250 = 60%. So it's safe(?) to assume that the damage will increase to around 160% of pre-BB with just skill modification (167% dmg increase with TT30).
Combined with the change in damage formula, my example got a +80% boost with TT10 while Fiel's thread (http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=28438) showed a good +150% boost with TT30 (+175% average damage boost due to higher mastery). That's a broad range, but at least, expect a significant increase in your damage.

[jhkplaya888]

NLs are fairly low on the dps charts, and nothing makes us awesome anymore SE doesn't make us throw rainbows and eating apples doesn't miracle boast us anymore. I never saw a DPS chart that uses the exact correct formulas....waiting for some people on SP to be less lazy and make one :D

[MorbidMagus]

NLs are fairly low on the dps charts, and nothing makes us awesome anymore SE doesn't make us throw rainbows and eating apples doesn't miracle boast us anymore. I never saw a DPS chart that uses the exact correct formulas....waiting for some people on SP to be less lazy and make one :D

Do you not notice that the example Nightlords DPS doubled post BB without SE/Thorns and with TT10? I'm pretty sure Apples mean more than before as well.

[Worthyness]

NLs are fairly low on the dps charts, and nothing makes us awesome anymore SE doesn't make us throw rainbows and eating apples doesn't miracle boast us anymore. I never saw a DPS chart that uses the exact correct formulas....waiting for some people on SP to be less lazy and make one :D

Apples still make NLs pretty raw considering alchemy still has their apple duration to like 15 minutes. that extra few minutes more of DPS is pretty insane.

[Dusk]

NLs are fairly low on the dps charts, and nothing makes us awesome anymore SE doesn't make us throw rainbows and eating apples doesn't miracle boast us anymore. I never saw a DPS chart that uses the exact correct formulas....waiting for some people on SP to be less lazy and make one :D

What. Go get on KMS and document every new formula/skill mechanic and I'll be glad to make you a DPS chart. Most likely you'll have to wait until Big Bang hits GMS. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that with potential, the class you pick doesn't matter nearly as much as the quality of your equipment.

[JoeTang]

What. Go get on KMS and document every new formula/skill mechanic and I'll be glad to make you a DPS chart.

What are we missing? Off the top of my head, Enrage, and Dual Charge are still up in the air, and possibly Dark Force. I hate how every fucking god damn Night Lord I see argues that since SE doesn't make them do godly damage anymore, they must do shit damage.

[Dusk]

What are we missing? Off the top of my head, Enrage, and Dual Charge are still up in the air, and possibly Dark Force. I hate how every fucking god damn Night Lord I see argues that since SE doesn't make them do godly damage anymore, they must do shit damage.

Still don't have a clear understanding of how DoT stacking works, PDD formula, plus a bunch of situational crap like Dodge, Counter Attack, and Infinity that make everything a hell of a lot more complicated.

[Lozmaster]

NLs are fairly low on the dps charts, and nothing makes us awesome anymore SE doesn't make us throw rainbows and eating apples doesn't miracle boast us anymore. I never saw a DPS chart that uses the exact correct formulas....waiting for some people on SP to be less lazy and make one :D

Didn't you get fed up of being told that you were wrong the first time you tried to make everyone think that NLs were getting horribly nerfed?

[JoeTang]

Still don't have a clear understanding of how DoT stacking works, PDD formula, plus a bunch of situational crap like Dodge, Counter Attack, and Infinity that make everything a hell of a lot more complicated.

Damage over time takes your max damage and uses that with the % per second. For example, since maxed Venom does 140% of your max damage range per second.

PDD does nothing so far.

Calculating for Dodge is like calculating for the amount of time wasted when you're kbed in my opinion.

[Dusk]

Damage over time takes your max damage and uses that with the % per second.

I know that. I'm an F/P. I kind of need to know what happens when I use Fire Demon and then Paralyze. What happens when multiple NLs are attacking the same boss? Can a boss take DoT from an unliimited number of sources? This is getting off-topic, though.

[Ryukiroku]

NLs are fairly low on the dps charts, and nothing makes us awesome anymore SE doesn't make us throw rainbows and eating apples doesn't miracle boast us anymore. I never saw a DPS chart that uses the exact correct formulas....waiting for some people on SP to be less lazy and make one :D
Didn't you get fed up of being told that you were wrong the first time you tried to make everyone think that NLs were getting horribly nerfed?

^^This

@jhkplaya888
We're not weak in the least sense of the world. Have you not seen the vids on both dojo and the NL soloing Zak WHILE hugging it's body doing insane damage. You don't give us enough credit man.

Edit: And we train faster than ever with the Avenger buff. :P

[Kabanaw]

I know that. I'm an F/P. I kind of need to know what happens when I use Fire Demon and then Paralyze. What happens when multiple NLs are attacking the same boss? Can a boss take DoT from an unliimited number of sources? This is getting off-topic, though.

I know that a F/P can put DoT on a boss simultaniously from 5 or 6 attacks, so I'm guessing there's no problem with multiple people. It's just like multiple people attacking a boss at the same time.

[Kalovale]

Some updates, need help verifying some facts.

Miscellaneous changes

1/ Shadow Shifter: +15% activation rate at all levels (1 point in SS at early NL-hood suddenly becomes useful).

2/ Shadow Resistance: +10% MaxHP(?), +20% Elemental Resistance (less dmg at Pap/HT heads)

3/ Avenger:
Damage formula change:
Old: Max = (Luk*3.6 + Dex) * (WeaponAttack / 100) = A
New: Max = 1.75*(4 * LUK + DEX) * (WeaponAttack / 100) = B
A/B = 3.6/7 (approximately; Dex didn't and won't matter significantly for a rough estimation) = 51.43%

For Avenger, not only does the SkillDamage% get boosted two-fold (180% to 350%), your damage range also goes up twice as high, resulting in a damage output almost 4 times as high as previously is pre-BB. New Mastery is also better, 65% vs. 54%.

4/ Taunt: Since you now mob, it could be possible to integrate Taunt into your training style more fluidly.

5/ Dark Flare: http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/skills/4111007.png
Level 20: "MP 100 Consumption, 60 seconds to summon dakeurodeu surigeom windmills, and 1300% of damage reflected, 60 seconds cooldown"
What the pineapple does this skill do? How do you use it?

6/ Experienced -gibberish-: "Lucky Seven, drain, eobenjyeo, shadow methods increased by 25% of the total damage, 20% chance to attack a charge Citation"
I heard this skill recharges your star. How does it work per TT? Or Avenger, if mobCount matters.

[Dusk]

It places a giant shuriken on the ground for 60 seconds. Whenever you take damage, 1300% (not sure how this is calculated exactly) is reflected back onto whatever attacked you.

[Kalovale]

It places a giant shuriken on the ground for 60 seconds. Whenever you take damage, 1300% (not sure how this is calculated exactly) is reflected back onto whatever attacked you.

So you can have that giant shuriken active all the time? Sounds like some BS Beholder Avenge, except if the 1300% is calculated off your Dmg range, it kinda pales in comparison.

[Dusk]

So you can have that giant shuriken active all the time? Sounds like some BS Beholder Avenge, except if the 1300% is calculated off your Dmg range, it kinda pales in comparison.

1300% appears to be calculated off the amount of damage that you took, but the numbers don't quite match up.

[Kalovale]

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/6149/dmg.png

It's just not practical to figure out a general expectation for all NLs, I guess. If anyone's interested, punch your stats here, or request the sheet.

Fixed the calculations a bit, post-BB self-critRate is 65%, not 60%, and with SE/Thorns it's 85%.

I'm almost done with this thread, I suppose.

[jhkplaya888]

im just going off of some dps chart i saw on basil. It seamed legit. NLs dmg has basically doubled from now. But so has every other class. And yes i saw the vids where nls were throwing 80-90k stars, but did you see the vids of the 100k hurricane, or the 150k hero move. Also about alch, resistance chars have like 3min alch.

as for dmg over time, many many classes have that also (atleast ranged classes)

http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-Guide-KMS-Big-Bang-Revamp-333.html

[Stereo]

That's a pretty massive boost to Avenger... should be nice to have a decent mob attack finally.

[MorbidMagus]

im just going off of some dps chart i saw on basil. It seamed legit. NLs dmg has basically doubled from now. But so has every other class. And yes i saw the vids where nls were throwing 80-90k stars, but did you see the vids of the 100k hurricane, or the 150k hero move. Also about alch, resistance chars have like 3min alch.

as for dmg over time, many many classes have that also (atleast ranged classes)

http://www.basilmarket.com/MapleStory-Guide-KMS-Big-Bang-Revamp-333.html

You should know that when he posted a DPS chart here he got highly criticized, and he even admitted he doesn't know how critical works, or skill delays :/ Theres other stuff such as moves and DoT piercing PDR/MDR, and all that. I wouldn't be going off that without hesitation.

It all depends on your equips anyways, more than your class.

[jhkplaya888]

You should know that when he posted a DPS chart here he got highly criticized, and he even admitted he doesn't know how critical works, or skill delays :/ Theres other stuff such as moves and DoT piercing PDR/MDR, and all that. I wouldn't be going off that without hesitation.

It all depends on your equips anyways, more than your class.

i know, he re did it and it looks legit now. It also makes logical sense, we were one of the lower dps classes now and will probably be one of the lower dps classes laters. (not counting SE hax or apples hax)

[Dusk]

i know, he re did it and it looks legit now. It also makes logical sense, we were one of the lower dps classes now and will probably be one of the lower dps classes laters. (not counting SE hax or apples hax)

Just took a look at it again. Most confusing layout ever. Infinity is implemented wrong and equips are still poorly chosen. DrKs are listed by Crusher instead of Sac. He needs to be a lot more consistent in his formatting so people can actually understand what's going on.

[Stereo]

Infinity is implemented wrong and equips are still poorly chosen.

I just checked the equips out, my NL's gear is within about 0.5% dps of his. I just have a lot less w.atk and a lot better base dex (seriously, 110 base? 199 total dex? wtp?) Plus of course my NL is not wearing a single piece of potential gear, or a nice new 50% scrolled claw for that matter. I haven't upgraded it in a while.


Thing standing out to me is that Onyx Apples are +132 atk with Adv. Dark Aura? Fo reals? That has a pretty major impact on the accuracy between classes.


His Paladin: 523k DPS with a Fast weapon.
My Paladin: 592k DPS with a Slow weapon.

I resolve that I am awesome.
Also, if SI is still +2 weapon speeds, it's an additional 12% boost to my damage. While it only boosts his Paladin by half that.

[JoeTang]

i know, he re did it and it looks legit now. It also makes logical sense, we were one of the lower dps classes now and will probably be one of the lower dps classes laters. (not counting SE hax or apples hax)

What a load of shit. 201 Total DEX on a Night Lord wearing full reverse? What the fuck?

He can't even calculate maximum damage properly. It's wrong. He can't even get the basic damage formulas for any character, you expect us to even remotely trust his other calculations?

Wow, fuck. Can't even stand to look at this "spread sheet". He thinks that average damage output is equivalent to your average damage multiplied by the mean of your minimum and maximum critical.

[Kalovale]

Wow, fuck. Can't even stand to look at this "spread sheet". He thinks that average damage output is equivalent to your average damage multiplied by the mean of your minimum and maximum critical.

Wut? I think I did exactly just that for Post-BB in the OP. Sorry for being slow but what exactly is wrong with it?

[JoeTang]

Wut? I think I did exactly just that for Post-BB in the OP. Sorry for being slow but what exactly is wrong with it?

Because you don't have 100% critical rate.

[Kalovale]

Because you don't have 100% critical rate.

Oh, he didn't include the crit chance? Wut? Lemme take a look.

EDIT: avgCritDmgBonus = totalCritBonus*avgCritDmg seems to cut it.

[Stereo]

Wow, pineapple. Can't even stand to look at this "spread sheet". He thinks that average damage output is equivalent to your average damage multiplied by the mean of your minimum and maximum critical.

I'm looking at v.2.5 and the crit calculation seems fine to me. crit rate * (min + max crit) / 2 should be the average bonus due to crits (in columns S to U depending on class... which is my main complaint. Inconsistency). Multiplying that by the base skill % should, again, give the average percent of the attack.

Inconsistency is my main gripe. The base stats are haphazard at best and don't even seem to be correct - they're missing 10 points on most classes, and heros/paladins have over 1000 base str.

I mean kudos for trying it's just really hard to work with this spreadsheet. And choosing Sacrifice instead of Crusher would have put DRKs at #2 DPS.


Paladins being #5 on neutral targets also makes me seriously suspicious. I mean, they're ahead of Dual Blades and MM/BM even without the elements? IS that really better balanced?

[JoeTang]

I'm looking at v.2.5 and the crit calculation seems fine to me. crit rate * (min + max crit) / 2 should be the average bonus due to crits (in columns S to U depending on class... which is my main complaint. Inconsistency). Multiplying that by the base skill % should, again, give the average percent of the attack.

Inconsistency is my main gripe. The base stats are haphazard at best and don't even seem to be correct - they're missing 10 points on most classes, and heros/paladins have over 1000 base str.

I mean kudos for trying it's just really hard to work with this spreadsheet. And choosing Sacrifice instead of Crusher would have put DRKs at #2 DPS.


Paladins being #5 on neutral targets also makes me seriously suspicious. I mean, they're ahead of Dual Blades and MM/BM even without the elements? IS that really better balanced?

Never mind, I see it now. There's these huge rounding errors everywhere I look too.

[jhkplaya888]

my NL got 200 dex :P (with equips, was planning to ap reset dex out T_T) But thats cause i got good equips and 110 base T_T i had like 6k range at 142 with no pot equips T_T on current gms though.
Since your all saying how bad it is, why haven't i seen 1 dps chart from SP....sure you might not have "everything" but atleast make a educational guess one or something...im planing my new char....

[Lozmaster]

why haven't i seen 1 dps chart from SP....sure you might not have "everything" but atleast make a educational guess one or something...im planing my new char....

Because we can make logical estimates and there is little to no use of a DPS chart for the amount of time it would take to make.

If having an accurate dps chart is so important to you, why don't you do it?

[Dusk]

my NL got 200 dex :P (with equips, was planning to ap reset dex out T_T) But thats cause i got good equips and 110 base T_T i had like 6k range at 142 with no pot equips T_T on current gms though.
Since your all saying how bad it is, why haven't i seen 1 dps chart from SP....sure you might not have "everything" but atleast make a educational guess one or something...im planing my new char....

As I said in the other thread, pomegranatety info is worse than no info at all. What can you use an inaccurate DPS comparison for? The whole point of a comparison is to see how well the classes are balanced. We learn absolutely nothing if your numbers are wrong. You don't get graded for effort in real life.

Side note, KaidaTan and I are actually working on making one.

[Alloy]

Well, there's a couple of thing NLs can expect FOR SURE after BB...

1. More efficient star usage.
2. Avenger can rival with triple throw even on only two mobs (The skill that has a chance to recharge also increases avenger's damage, but not triple throw's), and even on single targets along third job (with more star usage)
3. Drain will effectively heal more, as it deals more damage, and will most likely only require two hits to heal fully (each being 50% your total).
4. Taunt is now more effective, considering you won't punch anymore, and can simply spam avenger within the mob you just taunted. Add that hugeass damage reflecting star for better use.
5. Sharp eyes will still be nice, but we will now be able to not suck horribly without it. In fact, with potentials, we have a good chance to reach 100% critical rates, and that's ALWAYS sweet.
6. With the new hp increase we got, we can get to survive in some places we couldn't before.

If I'm missing something, feel free to say. But I believe those are the main points for Night Lords.

[Dusk]

Sharp Eyes doesn't play favorites anymore. It's now just roughly a 10-15% damage increase for every class. It shouldn't be in NL discussions anymore. You might as well talk about Combat orders, or Advanced Dark Aura.

[kruimel0]

So appearantly someone finally brought my DPS chart back up here on SP. Too bad. Wanted to finish it first. I see that you have lots of problems with inconsitencies because of the format, I'll start on a new lay-out tonight. Any other major/minor mistakes except the amount of dex for NLs (I'll have to look into that and change it)?

[jhkplaya888]

Because we can make logical estimates and there is little to no use of a DPS chart for the amount of time it would take to make.

If having an accurate dps chart is so important to you, why don't you do it?

Cause i don't know how to make one....if i did i would do it myself. Well i already sold all my equips, now to wait it out T_T



Side note, KaidaTan and I are actually working on making one.

:D