Sad Indeed...

[butterfλi]

So I was playing around with numbers and I was wondering:

Because the level 130 elemental weapons will be costing 1 billion and more, and the level 163 weapon cast into the forgotten shadows...


Would it be worth it for a lukless archmage to convert to luk, just to gain a 125% increase damage in exchange for adding luk and losing some int?

Because all archmages know that 125% in increase in damage is more much worth it than losing a "few" luk. Here are my results:


*Note: I will not consider any scrolling for the weapons because both weapons can be "godly" scrolled.
*I may have made some mistakes in calculations; point them out if I did.

The level 163 weapon requires 165 luk and has 178 matk.
The level 130 weapon requires 0 luk and has 145 matk.

Saving 161 luk, the level 130 weapon actually has 306 matk when compared to the level 163 which only has 178 matk.

That's terribly unbalanced but the question remains: is 125% boost in damage worth the 161 int loss?

Using Crovi's calculator (http://img263.imageshack.us/img263/3589/magicwo3.swf):

I gave the lukless magician 1000 magic, and 570 spell attack (max meteo/blizzard).
I gave the luk magician 839 magic (for being 161 int weaker than lukless), and 570 spell attack (max meteo/blizzard).

The lukless can hit a maximum of:
68,924 with the elemental weapon
55,139 without the elemental weapon (they're using a wisdom staff or w/e).

The luk can hit a maximum of:
53,182 with the elemental weapon
42,546 without the elemental weapon (they're using a normal weapon).


As you can see, luk magicians WITH an elemental weapon can BARELY catch up to lukless that's NOT EVEN USING AN ELEMENTAL WEAPON.

There are other factors that I did not consider such as getting 15 luk from zhelm, getting 22 luk from pendant (I'm not gonna consider overall luk or cape luk because both luk and lukless can use overall/cape int). Getting an extra 37 int, would only kick that 53k to 56k. Hardly a difference.


So my conclusion is: A lukless without an elemental weapon can still outdamage a luk magician with an elemental weapon. That's how pathetic the level 163 weapon is. So the next time you see a luk magician, you fame them, you F2 them, then immediately build a medium sized shrine in front of your grandparents' lawn.

Thank you for reading.

[Corn]

OH GOD NO.
+ Maple Warrior 20 would boost up that INT even more than the luked...

Poor Lukeds-_-

Then again, I shouldn't be talking since I'm a dexless assassin.

[Eriko]

I don't think it has to be exatly 161 less. :/ Oh well, it doesn't matter if it were 161 or even 130something less, it still wouldn't be worth it. :(

[Kabanaw]

You're assuming someone would cap their luk at 165 to equip this :/

As I said in a different thread, I would only be losing about 55 magic att, and I would save a ton of money.

[butterfλi]

You're assuming someone would cap their luk at 165 to equip this :/

As I said in a different thread, I would only be losing about 55 magic att, and I would save a ton of money.

Then I'm assuming you're using an overall and cape scrolled with luk? While you use a luk overall and cape, the lukless magician is using int overall and cape.

[Kabanaw]

Then I'm assuming you're using an overall and cape scrolled with luk? While you use a luk overall and cape, the lukless magician is using int overall and cape.

I'll explain this again :D

Here's what I'll use to get enough luk:

Egg'd HT Pendant
Z-Helm
Equips with luk using the maker skill
1 or 2 overall luk scrolls

All this adds up to about 53 luk, which as I said in my sig, is how much I'll need.

I figured that a lukless, who is using the lvl 130 weapon, would do about 5k more dmg than me. Of course, the 130 weapons would only be affordable to the super-funded lukless mages, so with the 25% boost I could techincally do more dmg than a lukless for a ton less.

[butterfλi]

hmm.. I don't know the exact numbers to work out the calculations but I'll build you a shrine later.

[Kabanaw]

hmm.. I don't know the exact numbers to work out the calculations but I'll build you a shrine later.

Sarcasm? Can't tell :o

But anyway, I've been using the below calculator for the dmg, don't know how accurate it is though :o

http://img504.imageshack.us/my.php?image=magicwo3xx2.swf

[randompeep]

T.T Why did I put luk on the stats? T.T

edit: maybe cause I'm poor

[Eriko]

The lukless gets the 25% boost, too.. What are you talking about exactly? >_>

[Blankout]

T.T Why did I put luk on the stats? T.T

edit: maybe cause I'm poor

Being lukless is actually cheaper, until you want to get your godly equips.

[Kabanaw]

The lukless gets the 25% boost, too.. What are you talking about exactly? >_>

I'm saying that the lvl 130 weapon costs so much that only the richest of all the AMs will be able to afford them, while the 163 ones will be easily affordable. Most luklesses will be stuck with a Wisdom Staff/Shine Wand, and not get the 25% boost.

[Eriko]

... but this thread is about the lukless elemental weapons. ?_? I don't see why you bring up that point if it has nothing to do with this.

[Kabanaw]

... but this thread is about the lukless elemental weapons. ?_? I don't see why you bring up that point if it has nothing to do with this.

The point is that with the new lukless weapons, lukless completely overpowers luk. My point was that with propor equips and the lvl 163 staff, this may not be so true.

[butterfλi]

... but this thread is about the lukless elemental weapons. ?_? I don't see why you bring up that point if it has nothing to do with this.

No. The point of the thread was to answer the question: Should a lukless convert to luk to use a cheaper elemental weapon? The answer is no. The rest is just explaining why the answer is no.

[Cyanne]

Those two calculators above use the wrong formula. Anyways, couldn't the lukless archmage just buy a level 70 weapon?

[butterfλi]

Really?

Max Power = (.005979 * Magic) squared + (.0359 * Magic)
Min Power = (.005979 * Magic) squared + (.0359 * Magic * Spell Mastery)

It uses this formula (http://sleepywood.net/forum/showthread.php?t=999736&highlight=introducing) found by Kyran a very long time ago. I've use it ever since I found it and haven't seen it to be totally off (ithough it's not the formula the game uses, it's very very close because they're both exponential).


I don't know what ArundRanger's calculator looks like since I'm banned from sw so I'm not sure why you're calling it wrong.

[Magus]

Because of the way our damage formula works it's really not that big of a deal.

I met a LUKless I/L who was 1 level higher then I was, so I decided to see what the difference damage wise was. We both used Blizzard, (Which was the SAME level.) and it turned out that he only really did ~2-3k more damage then I did, and he had better equips too.

[Bribery]

What if you just used the level 70 lukless counterparts? You "only" lose about 60 matk and still gain the 25%/10% bonuses. I don't know what the prices are in other servers, but in Bera, the level 70 Elemental Weapons are no more than 150m.

[Magus]

What if you just used the level 70 lukless counterparts? You "only" lose about 60 matk and still gain the 25%/10% bonuses. I don't know what the prices are in other servers, but in Bera, the level 70 Elemental Weapons are no more than 150m.
<_< I've seen them sell for well over 400m here in Broa.

[Bribery]

<_< I've seen them sell for well over 400m here in Broa.

Wow, I guess there are a lot more Mages in Broa o_o

Another alternative is the level 10x Staff. 105 Matk for 103 Luk is again "only" a 6x matk difference. Plus, the level 163 Staves seem to be the rarest out of them all. I've yet to see one in Bera.

[Tikey]

<_< I've seen them sell for well over 400m here in Broa.

I've seen the level 70 ones go for as low as 100m, around 200m being the highest I've seen. o-o

[Cyanne]

Here's a picture using 1747 magic and a 420 spell attack, 60% mastery spell.

The calculator gave me 83204-97431.
This formula:
MAX = (Magic *3.3 + Magic*Magic *0.003365 + INT*0.5 ) * Spell / 100
MIN = (Magic *3.3*Mastery *0.9 + Magic*Magic *0.003365 + INT*0.5 ) * Spell / 100

gave me 77872-93476 (I had 902 int).

http://i234.photobucket.com/albums/ee235/CyanneMage/gigajuice.jpg

If that calculator was accurate, zakum's arm would need like 20k magic defense to get my damage that low. The int-based formula looks a little bit off now, since zakum's arm would need about 8k magic def to lower damage by that much. I don't think it gets that high even with the magic defense up buff.

Yeah, the level 70 weapons really aren't that expensive, and, if/when the elemental bonuses are patched in, they'll give much more of a damage boost than an insane lukless weapon without the element boost.

[butterfλi]

If that calculator was accurate, zakum's arm would need like 20k magic defense to get my damage that low. The int-based formula looks a little bit off now, since zakum's arm would need about 8k magic def to lower damage by that much. I don't think it gets that high even with the magic defense up buff.


Well, like I said before, Kyran's formula isn't the formula the game uses. But both formulas are exponential. And because of how exponential graphs behave, that's why you see the difference as your magic is much higher.

Here's the explanation in picture form.

http://i33.tinypic.com/2qtzeba.png

For low magic scores, Kyran's formula is very accurate. But the more magic you have, the more and more the two formulas grow apart from eachother. Which is why for 17xx magic, it looks like Kyran's formula is "wrong".

Anyway, I believe that's why your numbers are different than what the calculator says. I can't think of any other explanation.

----

And about the level 70 weapon vs the level 130, or the level 70 vs the 103, I might play with it some more when I have time again. Those actually haven't crossed my mind when I was thinking about converting from lukless to low luk lol.

[LazyBui]

Egg'd HT Pendant
Z-Helm
Equips with luk using the maker skill

Egg'd pendant - 24 luk tops (perhaps slightly more if you Chaos Scroll the last 2 slots for the better)
Zakum helm - 17 luk tops.

Those are a given. That's only 41 luk. That means that you can safely wear any gear up to 45 luk requirement without wasting any int.

Could you describe the benefit of using Maker to get luk, stat-wise? I'm unfamiliar with the concept (say, if you could put luk on a nose or whatever).

Regardless, there is no way to get 161 luk out of gear that couldn't be scrolled for int that can be scrolled for luk. So the luk magician is always, always, always at a loss. ALWAYS. The fact that it requires the luk means you're taking points out of int.

Look, 165 luk requirement, which is effectively 161 since you have 4 base luk. Oop, 41 from pendant/helm, that's 120.

That's 120 int (and therefore, matk) that you're missing. The 163 staff is then essentially equivalent to a 58 matk lukless weapon. 178 base, right? 120 requirement?

You do realize the 130 wand has literally over double that - nearly triple? And that's with zhelm/pendant as a factor - it's much, much worse when you don't include them.

It does not matter how a luk magician struggles. The potential of a luk magician is lower - theoretically, realistically, and effectively. Assuming equal scrolling, the luk magician will never overcome a lukless. Ever. Continue with your shrine, butterfli.

EDIT: o, had the staff requirement slightly lower than it is, not that that helps luk magicians any. Also, typos.

[Haiku]

With the Maker skill, you can synth your items with Luk and Int jewels (only stuff for your job, not common items). If I remember correctly, with the final version of the skill you can use up to 3, but only one of each kind in each piece of gear. The best Luk/Int you can have on the jewel is 3. Aka, free stats that consume no slots and cannot fail. You can also use stims and jewels together to get a perfect statted item with bonus stats on it (realistically), because most armors and stuff are pretty easy to make.

The reason this can't really help a lukless is because you can only use the Maker skill to make items level 50+, so even with the Zhelm and HT pendant, they cannot equip level 50+ mage gear to use the Maker skill on without "wasting int" to do so. Though, even if they did, they wouldn't get as much out of it. Luk would be useless to them, so they'd only get half the total AP off the gear that the Luk mage would get (Luk and Int vs Int alone).

So, for a mage who already has pretty high Luk, it's no real loss to equip the 163 staves, is what I think Kabanaw is getting at. You won't be stronger than a Lukless, but you do get a much cheaper alternative (which looks quite stunning when equipped, at that) that takes full advantage of the stats you already have.

Personally I'll probably take the 163 staff route myself. I can live with doing lower damage than a rich Lukless person; I'd be in that position all along anyways. That, and getting both staves for my elements for the price of one 130 wand (or less) combined would be nice.

[Kabanaw]

With the Maker skill, you can synth your items with Luk and Int jewels (only stuff for your job, not common items). If I remember correctly, with the final version of the skill you can use up to 3, but only one of each kind in each piece of gear. The best Luk/Int you can have on the jewel is 3. Aka, free stats that consume no slots and cannot fail. You can also use stims and jewels together to get a perfect statted item with bonus stats on it (realistically), because most armors and stuff are pretty easy to make.

The reason this can't really help a lukless is because you can only use the Maker skill to make items level 50+, so even with the Zhelm and HT pendant, they cannot equip level 50+ mage gear to use the Maker skill on without "wasting int" to do so. Though, even if they did, they wouldn't get as much out of it. Luk would be useless to them, so they'd only get half the total AP off the gear that the Luk mage would get (Luk and Int vs Int alone).

So, for a mage who already has pretty high Luk, it's no real loss to equip the 163 staves, is what I think Kabanaw is getting at. You won't be stronger than a Lukless, but you do get a much cheaper alternative (which looks quite stunning when equipped, at that) that takes full advantage of the stats you already have.

Personally I'll probably take the 163 staff route myself. I can live with doing lower damage than a rich Lukless person; I'd be in that position all along anyways. That, and getting both staves for my elements for the price of one 130 wand (or less) combined would be nice.


That's exactly what I was saying. And actually, you could get up to +5 with a high grade jewel, but those are rare. And if a lukless mage was to use the lvl 70 wand, which has about 93 less MA than the lvl 163 one, the dmg from a luk mage would actually come very close.

[Rayquaza2233]

Shouldn't you factor in amp? o_o

[Haiku]

That's exactly what I was saying. And actually, you could get up to +5 with a high grade jewel, but those are rare. And if a lukless mage was to use the lvl 70 wand, which has about 93 less MA than the lvl 163 one, the dmg from a luk mage would actually come very close.

Oh they actually come close? Including MW or no? Interesting. Heeey maybe they'll all bandwagon lukless mages like they're doing priests atm and drop the prices of 103/163 even more. At least I have no competition for them in Yellonde. :B In fact, I've yet to meet another Luk I/L in my level range or above it.. `-`

The way I look at it is that the 130 wands are broken like Bishops are and shouldn't merit comparison in numbers, lol. I'm still interested in where things stand though for the hell of it. It could be a long time before we get the Maker skill in Global to make the "perfect" Luk mage, but it'll help a lot of mages get up on their feet when it comes if they leave the system unaltered. Come oooon Magatia~ `-`

PS Sorry if my post fails I haven't slept in a very long time. u.u

[LazyBui]

Amp affects spell base, not magic attack. Its description is misleading. It's exactly the same as a 135% boost to weapon attack in normal formulae - except the magic damage formula is designed for "weapon attack" that never gets higher - i.e. once a skill is maxed, spell base never increases aside from Amp.


With the Maker skill, you can synth your items with Luk and Int jewels (only stuff for your job, not common items). If I remember correctly, with the final version of the skill you can use up to 3, but only one of each kind in each piece of gear. The best Luk/Int you can have on the jewel is 3. Aka, free stats that consume no slots and cannot fail. You can also use stims and jewels together to get a perfect statted item with bonus stats on it (realistically), because most armors and stuff are pretty easy to make.

The reason this can't really help a lukless is because you can only use the Maker skill to make items level 50+, so even with the Zhelm and HT pendant, they cannot equip level 50+ mage gear to use the Maker skill on without "wasting int" to do so. Though, even if they did, they wouldn't get as much out of it. Luk would be useless to them, so they'd only get half the total AP off the gear that the Luk mage would get (Luk and Int vs Int alone).
So.. let me see if I have this right.

- You can only make (certain?) 50+ job-related armors/weapons/etc. using Maker
- You can only put one jewel in a given item
- A jewel generally has 3 of a stat, but there's a rare one that has 5
- Stimulators can be used in this to get maximum benefit from creating the item in the first place, essentially akin to finding a perfect drop or getting a good Gach

From what I'm hearing, it's basically going to be a 5 stat boost per item maximum, right? I'm guessing you can do shoes, gloves, armor, and possibly shields/weapons (?) with it?

I suppose if you had 15-25 additional luk, that'd be a help, but it still doesn't even come close to making the 163 staff equal, which is what makes me so angry. It's the highest level weapon in the game and it's just as terrible as the level 55 staff except it has an elemental boost.

I know this has been mentioned before, but all wands/staves that aren't lukless or Doomsday are functionally equivalent - the luk requirement completely negates the increase in magic attack because they both increase by the same number.

Personally, I find that it sucks balls that I made a luk magician at the very start of global (read: literally the only option at the time) and it ends up that I can't even make it compete because of things I could not have ever possibly foreseen.. but that's a bit off track.

[butterfλi]

Both luk and lukless has amp, so who cares? They both benefit.




I suppose if you had 15-25 additional luk, that'd be a help, but it still doesn't even come close to making the 163 staff equal, which is what makes me so angry. It's the highest level weapon in the game and it's just as terrible as the level 55 staff except it has an elemental boost.

I know this has been mentioned before, but all wands/staves that aren't lukless or Doomsday are functionally equivalent - the luk requirement completely negates the increase in magic attack because they both increase by the same number.

Personally, I find that it sucks balls that I made a luk magician at the very start of global (read: literally the only option at the time) and it ends up that I can't even make it compete because of things I could not have ever possibly foreseen.. but that's a bit off track.

Bui, I know what you're saying and I'm not sure if you trying to pick an argument with me or agreeing with me. Because I already said that luk loses out (which is unfortunate because of many reasons like people who didn't make a lukless when gMS was released). Now, if you want to consider things like luk from item maker, shoes, gloves, whatever, you don't get a big enough boost to compete with the level 130.

There are luk magicians in gMS that are stronger than lukless at the moment as the "Top Magic for Their Level" thread back at sw from Afrobean has shown. The problem is that the level 130 just has waaay too much matk and not requiring any luk.

So all you're doing is including all these side stats from equips but you're still proving the same point that was established: "too bad, so sad" to luk magicians.

You can include 4-8 luk from maple warrior if you want; I really didn't mind or bother with ANY side equipment; The point of the thread was trying to solve the issue of price for lukless: should lukless convert to luk so that they can use a cheaper elemental weapon? The answer was no. If the numbers came out to be close, then maybe we can get complex with equipments too see if it was worth it. But the numbers just make it not worth it to convert.

[Harrisonized]

Can you calculate the amount loss for the level 103 staff. I'm pretty sure those will be cheaper than the lukless staves as well. :glitter:

[Haiku]

Well, actually with Maker you can put up to 3 jewels in your item. They just can't be the same as each other. So you could theoretically have an item with perfect Int/Luk and then a bonus of both 5 Int & Luk on it without losing slots on the item. Granted for a Luk mage who wants to make the best of their build, this isn't a huge stretch for them to go for and it's a lot cheaper than making a 40+ stat overall simply by scrolls for example. In other words, it's become more realistic to obtain "godly" stat bonuses for the luk mage (which I guess makes up for MW helping the Lukless more?).

We all know there's no way to surpass those wands, and we also now know that converting isn't worth it for those who are capable of shelling out for those wands (thanks to butterfli).. but not everyone's lukless, so discussing means to make use of the luk a lot of people already have is bound to come up anyways. I'd be interested to see just where a best case scenario 163 user stands, even though I know it wouldn't be stronger than the 130. I suppose this'll mean separate magic rank threads eventually for luk and lukless eventually to be fair, eh?

Edit: Oh and in the first post I just noticed you didn't include a zhelm/HT pendant which would give you luk whether you're luk or lukless, so that much isn't actually a loss.

Blue Elemental Gloves: 5 Luk 5 Int
Dark Neli Shoes: 5 Int 2 Luk 2 MA
Green Bazura: 7 Luk 4 Int

Total: 14 Int 2 MA 14 Luk
After Maker: 29 Int 2 MA 29 Luk

After HT pendant and Zhelm
29 Int 2 MA 70 Luk that a Lukless doesn't get assuming neither has scrolled their equips or they have them identically scrolled (same passes/fails of same scrolls)

165 - 70 = 95; "best case scenario". 95 - 4 = 91 stat points "lost" on Luk for a 178 MA weapon.
178 - 91 = 87

Whereas 103:
Dark Clarity: 5 Int 3 Luk
Gold Lapiz: 4 Int 2 Luk 2 MA
Dark Enigma: 7 Int 3 Luk

Total: 16 Int 8 Luk 2 MA
After Maker: 31 Int 23 Luk 2 MA

After HT pendant and Zhelm
31 Int 64 Luk 2 MA Luk that a Lukless doesn't get assuming neither has scrolled their equips or they have them identically scrolled (same passes/fails of same scrolls)

105 - 64 = 41; "best case scenario". 41 - 4 = 37 stat points "lost" on Luk for a 118 MA weapon.
118 - 37 = 81

Going by that, they both come up right around/on par with the level 70 wand, and either way can work with enough patience. Competing with the 60 or so MA more of the 130 solely in numbers simply isn't doable. However, this does mean that for a mage who's currently Luk, equipping the 103/163 staves can be more beneficial than shelling out for the 130s. I could of course be horribly wrong, as math was never my ideal subject (more of a language arts kinda girl), but I just thought it'd be interesting to take a look. Thoughts anyone? :\ I know this gear wouldn't be as easy to obtain as going to the FM and buying an item, but for endgame weapons and armor, it was worth looking at the best case scenarios (which aren't impossible to obtain and don't require things like white scrolls).

That's also assuming you can make gloves/shoes with the Maker skill, which I'm doubting. I don't know for sure one way or the other because I haven't had that much experience with it. If you can't get the bonus stats on the gloves/shoes, then both builds fall short by 10 Luk and 10 Int.

[butterfλi]

Can you calculate the amount loss for the level 103 staff. I'm pretty sure those will be cheaper than the lukless staves as well. :glitter:



Okay, so in my original post, I was blind for not bothering to compare more. I was taking the BEST of lukless and comparing it to the WORSE of luk. Which was bad.

Using the same stats (1000 magic and 570 spell attack), I compared some other weapons. Some interesting things did come up.

*I will be referring the weapons' difference by their levels because I don't want to type level every time.

70 | 85matk | 0 luk -- lukless
103 | 118matk | 105 luk -- luk
130 | 145matk | 0 luk -- lukless
163 | 178matk | 165 luk -- luk

70 vs 103
The lukless can hit a maximum of:
68,924 with the elemental weapon
55,139 without the elemental weapon

The luk can hit a maximum of:
62,058 with the elemental weapon
49,646 without the elemental weapon

Conclusion: In my opinion, no, it's not worth converting. It might be worth it though depending on how well you can pull out int. The difference here is that the level 103 is only losing to the 70 by about 68 int. Which isn't as bad because the 130 vs 163, the 163 lost by 87.

70 vs 163
Okay, I admit it. I didn't do any calculations here because I was lazy. But we all can see what's going to happen. The level 163 is basically just the 103 with a higher level and luk requirement.

178 matk - 118matk = 60matk difference
105 luk - 165luk = 60luk difference

Conclusion: Thus, the int difference between the 70 and 163 would also be the 70 leading by being 68 int higher.

103 vs 163
178 matk - 118matk = 60matk difference
105 luk - 165luk = 60luk difference

Conclusion: The two are exactly equal in terms of stats. The luk difference is equal to the matk gain. The level 103 might be "better" though because the level and luk requirement is lower.

103 vs 130
Okay, I admit again, I'm being lazy again but really, there's no point in comparing anything here.

The 103 has 118matk. The 130 has 145matk AND no luk requirement.

General Conclusion:
If you compare a lukless with a normal weapon, the luk can finally catch up to the lukless. But with the level 70 lukless weapon, things go unbalanced again unless the luk can pull out ~68 luk from helm, pendant, maple warrior, shoes, where ever. Then they'll be equal. But with the level 130, it IS possible for to catch up (as in if the luk mage can pull out ~87 luk without losing int). But the effort is just so difficult that it's probably better to stay lukless.

Lastly, the level 130 lukless elemental staff is the root of all evil, is the last diminished candle, is the rain on a sunny day, is the tear from your hamster, is the Neil Armstrong when you're Michael Collins, and is unfair beyond life and death. kbye.

[Harrisonized]

70 vs 103
The lukless can hit a maximum of:
68,924 with the elemental weapon
55,139 without the elemental weapon

The luk can hit a maximum of:
62,058 with the elemental weapon
49,646 without the elemental weapon

Conclusion: In my opinion, no, it's not worth converting. It might be worth it though depending on how well you can pull out int. The difference here is that the level 103 is only losing to the 70 by about 68 int. Which isn't as bad because the 130 vs 163, the 163 lost by 87.
It's only a 7K damage difference, nothing much. Now I really don't see why everyone say's my build is screwed when I tell them I have 98 base luk. :f7:

[Kabanaw]

Ok, last post for me.
My points:
I have 99 more luk than a lukless.
Most luklesses will use the lvl 70 wand.
The 163 staff has 93 more luk on average
With equal scrolling and me being able to use the maker skill to get extra int, it balances itself out.
lukless mages using the 130 staff would do more dmg than me, but not a ton more.


Basically, in the end I'll be nearly equal to lukless mages, and I'll be able to wear a lot cooler looking equips.

[LazyBui]

Because if you'll notice, you're not 103. You're 13x.

Anyway, I was agreeing with you, butterfli. There's no reason to ever make a luk magician if you want damage ("make" in this case includes converting). That should've been obvious from the moment the level 64 Maple weapons came out.

The only reason there are any luk magicians on the highest magic score list, I'm pretty sure, is due to time. The 64 Maple weapons have only been out for 4ish months, whereas all the other items have been out for multiple years - specifically the luk stuff. The only thing that keeps the power in check (not very well, I might add, people hoard these items when they drop) is the fact that they're only available once per year. Honorable mention goes to new scroll prices - older players didn't have to pay as much for their scrolls because they weren't desired by literally every class for the MP gain.

God, magicians are so broken. And still level the fastest so nobody gives a pumpernickel. :eek:

[Silence]

wow ~ lol... a huge discussion here...

1. lvl 130 > lvl 163 no matter what ( in terms of power )
2. prices of lvl 163 will be cheaper than lvl 130

but the question here was is it worth pumping up luk to get the cheaper staff?

in my opinion, stay lukless, if you cant afford the 130 wand, then save up, it's really not too hard for mages to make meso.

Off- Topic:

if you alreadi have luk, try to cap your luk to the minimum, and wait for the maker skill to make the most out of ur luk ^^

for the people insterest in different builds on their mages, here's some info from a msea player,

he also assumed that he have pend' egg + zhelm + maker skill ^^

lowluk is around 22 luk, normal is around 54 luk

he also said that

"lvl 163 weapons will still be useless unless you can get to the point where you can equip it using a base luk of 33 or less. (then it would just be comparable with the lvl 130 wand)."



---Updated Rankings---
Pure Int -Starlight Build [Ice Berg + Maker] 993
Low Luk - Dark Lorin Build [Ice Berg + Maker] 983
Pure Int -Starlight Build [Ice Berg] 980
Pure Int - SR Build [Ice Berg] 976
Pure Int - SR Build [Ice Berg + Maker] 976
Low Luk - Fury Build [Ice Berg + Maker] 966
Low Luk - Dark Lorin Build [Ice Berg] 958
Normal - Varuna Build [Ice Berg + Maker] 958
Pure Int - SR Build [Ice Staff + Maker] 949
Low Luk - Fury Build [Ice Berg] 941
Normal - Varuna Build [Ice Berg] 934
Low Luk - Fury Build [Ice Staff + Maker] 933
Normal - Varuna Build [Ice Staff + Maker] 931
Low Luk - Dark Lorin Build [Ice Staff + Maker] 928
Pure Int -Starlight Build [Ice Staff + Maker] 921
Normal - Varuna Build [Ice Staff] 904
Low Luk - Fury Build [Ice Staff] 903
Low Luk - Dark Lorin Build [Ice Staff] 898
Pure Int -Starlight Build [Ice Staff] 893
Pure Int - SR Build [Ice Staff] 888

Source: chrisloup from Playpark

[Hazzy]

That's messed up. :x

Although, the Lukless staff requries 4 Luk - you can't reset past there. Not like those four points make a difference though. D:

Now run your numbers again to find out how much Magic Attack the 163 Staff would need to be balanced with the 130. :>

[randompeep]

The luk staves also require 4 luk... then you stack the rest on. :f1:

You need something like 116 MATK more on the 163 staff to balance the 130 (according to LazyBui's calculations). That's if you have both a zhelm and a pendant. You will need way more if you don't.

[Hazzy]

They should make the 163 staff's elemental bonus 135%/140% or something. >:}
That would yield pleasant results. (Come on! It's 163, it should be strong)

[randompeep]

It's like the dex 90 claw vs the dexless 90 claw (the night raven's claw) the dex has only +5 more WATK than the dexless, and that just screws the (few) dex NLs out there.

Considering that Nexon doesn't like mages much, they would probably tack, maybe 30 MATK on, stick a 130% bonus, and call it a day. (If they even bother to change it.)

[Russt]

The 103 is a better wand than the 163, because the magic damage calculations in this game are one big tropical fruit.

Assuming you wouldn't be 'wasting' luk if you went with the 103:
103 - 60 mdef, 6 MP/level, .3 extra damage per spell attack, easier to find, lower level req.
163 - 30 avoid, aesthetics/novelty.

Functionally, they're almost equal, so why wait until level 163?

It's all pretty irrelevant though. The 70 is better than the 103 if you have anything less than 72 luk, and I'm not even going to speak of the 130.


I have a request, though. Can you compare a Shine Wand/Wisdom Staff to a 70/130 on off-elements?

[Goals]

Honestly, I expect the elemental wands' prices to drop a little or ALOT (for the f/p types) when they start working. Why? Go count how many level 130 ARCH Mages are even there in any given server! ^__^ And bishops can't use them anymore.

But yeah, LUK arch mages are obsolete. (bishops are fine LUK, I suppose, smexy doomsdays =D)






... Then again, people could bandwagon the Arch Mage class (especially F/P) for cheap wands and the price will rise again.

[Kabanaw]

Honestly, I expect the elemental wands' prices to drop a little or ALOT (for the f/p types) when they start working. Why? Go count how many level 130 ARCH Mages are even there in any given server! ^__^ And bishops can't use them anymore.

But yeah, LUK arch mages are obsolete. (bishops are fine LUK, I suppose, smexy doomsdays =D)






... Then again, people could bandwagon the Arch Mage class (especially F/P) for cheap wands and the price will rise again.


Haven't I already explained that we might not really be (well at least me)obsolete? -_-

[Goals]

Haven't I already explained that we might not really be (well at least me)obsolete? -_-

Sorry, I did read your posts now. I STILL believe its obsolete though, even though the maker skill or whatever might balance things out, wouldn't it cost a lot to use something of that sort? Especially when other classes might use the same skill. Besides 1bil won't kill most people... Chances are, the people who gach the level 163 staves will HORRIBLY overprice it!

I'm a fm-browser myself, lemme tell you all: I never got a elemental wand level 130 for above 500m. Well it's like this.

1. The first elemental wand I ever bought was the poison wand. I got it for 310m from someone I know who cut me a discount... I agreed with a few people I talked to that they're going to be f/p only. I sold it for 1.5b.

2. The 2nd elemental wand (lightning) I got was for 220m, this time off some random person (my guildmate told me about it). I decided I didn't like lightning so I sold it for 950m.

3. Now the last one took a while to find, a total of 1 1/2 weeks. It was a 7 below ice wand, 138 ma. I bought it for 301m. It was off FM shop. I'm using it atm.

I conclude they're not really that hard to find. My buddies have my pestering me about me being soooo lucky. I THINK they're SEMI-EASILY available, C'MON they're from mushroom shrine. My point is: EVERYONE gaches at mushroom shrine, they're just CAN'T be in their bils for that long. I also go back to my first point, THERE AREN'T MANY I/L or F/P over 130 ANYWAY.

[Kabanaw]

Sorry, I did read your posts now. I STILL believe its obsolete though, even though the maker skill or whatever might balance things out, wouldn't it cost a lot to use something of that sort? Especially when other classes might use the same skill. Besides 1bil won't kill most people... Chances are, the people who gach the level 163 staves will HORRIBLY overprice it!

I'm a fm-browser myself, lemme tell you all: I never got a elemental wand level 130 for above 500m. Well it's like this.

1. The first elemental wand I ever bought was the poison wand. I got it for 310m from someone I know who cut me a discount... I agreed with a few people I talked to that they're going to be f/p only. I sold it for 1.5b.

2. The 2nd elemental wand (lightning) I got was for 220m, this time off some random person (my guildmate told me about it). I decided I didn't like lightning so I sold it for 950m.

3. Now the last one took a while to find, a total of 1 1/2 weeks. It was a 7 below ice wand, 138 ma. I bought it for 301m. It was off FM shop. I'm using it atm.

I conclude they're not really that hard to find. My buddies have my pestering me about me being soooo lucky. I THINK they're SEMI-EASILY available, C'MON they're from mushroom shrine. My point is: EVERYONE gaches at mushroom shrine, they're just CAN'T be in their bils for that long. I also go back to my first point, THERE AREN'T MANY I/L or F/P over 130 ANYWAY.

Well, even with the elemental wands readily available someone using the 130 with closely scrolled equips only have ~55 more MA.

MY point isn't that I'd be stronger. It's that the difference is tiny (like, 5k dmg with blizzard)

[Bribery]

A 5k damage difference is huge if it changes the number of hits to KO with ultimates. 55 MATK difference means that LUKless will change the # of hits to KO 11 levels earlier than LUK.

[Kabanaw]

A 5k damage difference is huge if it changes the number of hits to KO with ultimates. 55 MATK difference means that LUKless will change the # of hits to KO 11 levels earlier than LUK.

So they'd be able to train slightly faster. Doesn't make muvh of a difference endgame, when you're bossing :/

[Goals]

So they'd be able to train slightly faster. Doesn't make muvh of a difference endgame, when you're bossing :/

If someone gave you 99 free AP resets and a free elemental wand 7 or 8, would you reset? LUK mages are basically mistakes (I don't mean to sound harsh).

I agree though, 55 magic loss isn't THAT bad. Heck, 55 magic loss from my magic bonus is like... +275 magic bonus. Not bad at all.

[Kabanaw]

If someone gave you 99 free AP resets and a free elemental wand 7 or 8, would you reset? LUK mages are basically mistakes (I don't mean to sound harsh).

I agree though, 55 magic loss isn't THAT bad. Heck, 55 magic loss from my magic bonus is like... +275 magic bonus. Not bad at all.

No, because I love the way the endgame equips look. I would have capped my luk at 90, but I wanted to wear a varuna which needs 103 luk. Also, looking further into the future, the lvl 120 equips would do even more to close the gap.

[Magus]

I conclude they're not really that hard to find. My buddies have my pestering me about me being soooo lucky. I THINK they're SEMI-EASILY available, C'MON they're from mushroom shrine. My point is: EVERYONE gaches at mushroom shrine, they're just CAN'T be in their bils for that long. I also go back to my first point, THERE AREN'T MANY I/L or F/P over 130 ANYWAY.
Not every server is like Bera. Blade Staffs where also from Mushroom shrine. Those where pretty rare in Broa.
Also, if you even get an elemental weapon from the Gach there's only a 1 in 16 chance it'll be the one you want. You're way too optimistic in this regard.


If someone gave you 99 free AP resets and a free elemental wand 7 or 8, would you reset? LUK mages are basically mistakes (I don't mean to sound harsh).
Wow. You really sound like those elitist LUKless mages I dislike.
Some people don't only care about damage, or made their character in 2005 before the idea of LUKless started, and they are fine with it. People like yourself are the reason I generally hate Lukless mages. I have 100 LUK, and I do about the same damage as a 4 LUK funded I/L with the same level on Blizzard. So if doing about 2-3k more damage then me makes you feel better, then by all means do so.

[Russt]

Also, if you even get an elemental weapon from the Gach there's only a 1 in 16 chance it'll be the one you want. You're way too optimistic in this regard.
Not necessarily. A person could conceivably be looking for any of Ice 70, Lit 70, Ice 103, Lit 103, Ice 130, and Lit 130. That's, what, 6/16? 3/8. Not that bad... given that you do get an elemental weapon.

[Goals]

Not every server is like Bera. Blade Staffs where also from Mushroom shrine. Those where pretty rare in Broa.
Also, if you even get an elemental weapon from the Gach there's only a 1 in 16 chance it'll be the one you want. You're way too optimistic in this regard.


Wow. You really sound like those elitist LUKless mages I dislike.
Some people don't only care about damage, or made their character in 2005 before the idea of LUKless started, and they are fine with it. People like yourself are the reason I generally hate Lukless mages. I have 100 LUK, and I do about the same damage as a 4 LUK funded I/L with the same level on Blizzard. So if doing about 2-3k more damage then me makes you feel better, then by all means do so.

Well I didn't mean to be elitist. I understand some people feel that LUK mage weapons and armors look better than LUKless. I really like the looks of the Doomsday staff myself, but can't use it. Who doesn't like damage anyway, 2-3k could mean difference in the number of hits to ko like what many above stated.

On a side note: bishops are TOTALLY fine as luk mages. I mean doomsdays already close the gap compared to using a maple shine wand or maple wisdom staff.

[Magus]

Not necessarily. A person could conceivably be looking for any of Ice 70, Lit 70, Ice 103, Lit 103, Ice 130, and Lit 130. That's, what, 6/16? 3/8. Not that bad... given that you do get an elemental weapon.
This is very true. However from what I understand he only wants the level 130 wand.

Well I didn't mean to be elitist. I understand some people feel that LUK mage weapons and armors look better than LUKless. I really like the looks of the Doomsday staff myself, but can't use it. Who doesn't like damage anyway, 2-3k could mean difference in the number of hits to ko like what many above stated.Personally, damage isn't the reason I chose mage. If I was into that sort of thing I would have gone Hero, Night Lord, or hell, even Bowmaster.


On a side note: bishops are TOTALLY fine as luk mages. I mean doomsdays already close the gap compared to using a maple shine wand or maple wisdom staff.
But I/Ls and F/Ps are not?

[Russt]

You quoted the wrong name, lol.

I think he means that Shine ~ Blade < Element 103/163 < Element 70/130 (I'm actually not entirely sure how Blade compares to a working 103) so if you're a Bishop who can't use any of the elements, then Blade users aren't disadvantage, but if you're an AM, then Element 70/130 are clearly the best weapons out there.

Yeah, not too coherent. I'm tired x_X

[Goals]

You quoted the wrong name, lol.

I think he means that Shine ~ Blade < Element 103/163 < Element 70/130 (I'm actually not entirely sure how Blade compares to a working 103) so if you're a Bishop who can't use any of the elements, then Blade users aren't disadvantage, but if you're an AM, then Element 70/130 are clearly the best weapons out there.

Yeah, not too coherent. I'm tired x_X


Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I don't think of Elemental weapons 70/130 as better than Shine/Blade simply because bishops have genesis and can't use the 130 without penalty anyway (when they're fixed that is)

If I wanted a bishop, I would totally make a LUK bishop using blade staff simply because of its sexiness. :heart:

[Magus]

You quoted the wrong name, lol.

I think he means that Shine ~ Blade < Element 103/163 < Element 70/130 (I'm actually not entirely sure how Blade compares to a working 103) so if you're a Bishop who can't use any of the elements, then Blade users aren't disadvantage, but if you're an AM, then Element 70/130 are clearly the best weapons out there.

Yeah, not too coherent. I'm tired x_X
No I didn't! What are you talking about! You have no proof! <_____<


Yeah, that's exactly what I mean. I don't think of Elemental weapons 70/130 as better than Shine/Blade simply because bishops have genesis and can't use the 130 without penalty anyway (when they're fixed that is)

If I wanted a bishop, I would totally make a LUK bishop using blade staff simply because of its sexiness. :heart:
That actually is a very, very good point.

[xLeviathan]

ARGH!
I knew I was getting RIPPED!
Guess I should be happy I'm a Cleric :/

By the way, I agree with this 100%!


So my conclusion is: A lukless without an elemental weapon can still outdamage a luk magician with an elemental weapon. That's how pathetic the level 163 weapon is. So the next time you see a luk magician, you fame them, you F2 them, then immediately build a medium sized shrine in front of your grandparents' lawn.

[kIkO]

Im happy ...im still da Strongest GMS bishop x3

bishops using elementals dont count :f3:

[Molly]

Im happy ...im still da Strongest GMS bishop x3

bishops using elementals dont count :f3:

elementals sadly DO count now since they applied the bonus, but not the penalty for holy magic *boohiss* oh, and duped gear and shady means of obtaining shouldn't count either then. :f3:

[Derimed]

If your gear is top-of-the-line you'll eventually be doing 99k with your ultimate. My friend was doing that with a godly Wisdom staff, (he's sold it since, so right now he can't,) so the elementals are not really necessary; at least from the perspective of having that many mesos to throw around. I understand having an elemental weapon will allow that faster, but I know it's been done without elemental weapons.


If someone gave you 99 free AP resets and a free elemental wand 7 or 8, would you reset? LUK mages are basically mistakes (I don't mean to sound harsh).

I agree though, 55 magic loss isn't THAT bad. Heck, 55 magic loss from my magic bonus is like... +275 magic bonus. Not bad at all.

On my server #1 is KhainPriest, who wields a Dragon Staff. Being full luk seems not to have stopped him, even though he quit Maple for three months before reclaiming the #1 spot.

[kIkO]

elementals sadly DO count now since they applied the bonus, but not the penalty for holy magic *boohiss* oh, and duped gear and shady means of obtaining shouldn't count either then. :f3:


I said bishops, soon or late elemental weapons will start decreasing holy magic...and about the staff, i dont know if its dupped or not, i just bought it

and the user above, before i got this lame ass ban
i did 93k with mw 20 and gene 30at lvl 145..thinking about it at lvl 15x i will be able to 1hko 100%

oh and btw... lolarchmages

[Tiff]

I said bishops, soon or late elemental weapons will start decreasing holy magic...and about the staff, i dont know if its dupped or not, i just bought it

and the user above, before i got this lame ass ban
i did 93k with mw 20 and gene 30at lvl 145..thinking about it at lvl 15x i will be able to 1hko 100%

oh and btw... lolarchmages

but you have gene30 and mw20 .

[kIkO]

but you have gene30 and mw20 .

And...?

[LordVader]

And...?

and not everyone can get ulti 30 and MW 20. You try HTing on an archmage, it isnt exactly easy to get on runs. For some reason f/p arent buying M30 in the FM in broa (odd considering our prices are downright shitty on everything else and the one i saw was only like 28 mil), but getting MW 20 would cost you about...350M? for a 70% shot at it.

I want an elemental, i really do. However, the only fire staff/wand i know of that got sold was the 130 fire one at 1 bil, and i have about 160 mil <_<

B> lvl 103 fire weapon on broa 150 mil ;-;

[kIkO]

and not everyone can get ulti 30 and MW 20. You try HTing on an archmage, it isnt exactly easy to get on runs. For some reason f/p arent buying M30 in the FM in broa (odd considering our prices are downright pumpernickelty on everything else and the one i saw was only like 28 mil), but getting MW 20 would cost you about...350M? for a 70% shot at it.

I want an elemental, i really do. However, the only fire staff/wand i know of that got sold was the 130 fire one at 1 bil, and i have about 160 mil <_<

B> lvl 103 fire weapon on broa 150 mil ;-;


thats why i said lolarchmages
and mw20 in windia is like 200m now... i dont know about gene i didnt buy any
besides everyone choose their job for a reason ;3

[Almandaragal]

thats why i said lolarchmages
and mw20 in windia is like 200m now... i dont know about gene i didnt buy any
besides everyone choose their job for a reason ;3
Lolobnoxioustroll?

Seriously, your elitist opinions reflected in your dismissal of non Bishop magicians has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

However, actually addressing the topic, I had done rough estimates with only the vaguest numbers at one point while training and got similar results. In the end though, what's 5k on an ultimate? Sure, it's some notable levels possibly 1 hitting earlier, but that only really matters assuming both Arch Mages are using the same level ultimate. Generally speaking, one can pump points into an ultimate to make up for the distance from 1 hitting something. Besides, it's not like we use ultimates to seriously boss (Zak is a joke to most people by 130 if they don't remember the days where it took 14x+ people with only 3rd job skills and no apples), so the damage difference is even less. Lukless will always have the advantage, assuming Nexon doesn't go back to their roots. As far as I'm concerned, it's not going to happen from all of the Masteria equipment that favors low secondary/no secondary stat classes. I guess the one reason we have to be greatful for in our horrid magic formula is that even if you can bust out 99,999 with an ultimate 15 levels earlier given same stat equipment, it really doesn't matter much.

I'm not overly happy that they didn't put some luk requirement on the 130 staff, like, say, 90-110 or something so as to force someone to use luk equips or add luk, but we're having enough trouble getting Nexon to make them do what they're supposed to at this point (Including nerf holy magic). I'd rather have them like they're "supposed" to be, lukless BS advantage and all, than not have them. At least there is a chance to not have everything based solely on your stats for strength with them.

[kIkO]

Lolobnoxioustroll?

Seriously, your elitist opinions reflected in your dismissal of non Bishop magicians has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

However, actually addressing the topic, I had done rough estimates with only the vaguest numbers at one point while training and got similar results. In the end though, what's 5k on an ultimate? Sure, it's some notable levels possibly 1 hitting earlier, but that only really matters assuming both Arch Mages are using the same level ultimate. Generally speaking, one can pump points into an ultimate to make up for the distance from 1 hitting something. Besides, it's not like we use ultimates to seriously boss (Zak is a joke to most people by 130 if they don't remember the days where it took 14x+ people with only 3rd job skills and no apples), so the damage difference is even less. Lukless will always have the advantage, assuming Nexon doesn't go back to their roots. As far as I'm concerned, it's not going to happen from all of the Masteria equipment that favors low secondary/no secondary stat classes. I guess the one reason we have to be greatful for in our horrid magic formula is that even if you can bust out 99,999 with an ultimate 15 levels earlier given same stat equipment, it really doesn't matter much.

I'm not overly happy that they didn't put some luk requirement on the 130 staff, like, say, 90-110 or something so as to force someone to use luk equips or add luk, but we're having enough trouble getting Nexon to make them do what they're supposed to at this point (Including nerf holy magic). I'd rather have them like they're "supposed" to be, lukless BS advantage and all, than not have them. At least there is a chance to not have everything based solely on your stats for strength with them.

No.I meant lolarchmages and lollukless will not domain at all :)

Bishop FTW & Lowluk FTW also x3

even tho i got some "infraction"
i was thinking... i have to add to this luk/lowluk mages get more stats from zhelm and ht pend
i get 47 stats from my zhelm wich is 16 luk and 31int, a lukless mage would only get 31 int
so ht pend+1 gives me 44 stats, and a lukless mage only 22int