The ___-less path, the downfall of MS?

[Kawasari Mimoto]

I'm going to explain what I'm trying to say, I want multiple perspectives of things from you guys. Also, note that I'm not saying that because I have a NL with 81-base DEX.. Anyways, during this recent patch, me and a couple of my Night Lord friends were rather disappointed. I'm sure the DEXless-NL/Hermit community is quite pleased though, they have everything handed to their ass because of this patch.


Night Raven's Claw
Thief only - Claw
Req Level: 90
Req LUK: 300
WDEF: +5
Weapon Attack: +40
LUK: +2
Faster(3)
7 slots

^Lv 90 DEXless Claw.


Req Level: 90
Req DEX: 130
Req LUK: 260
WDEF: +5
Weapon Attack: +45
LUK: +2
Fast(4)
7 slots

^Lv 90 DEX'ed Claw.

See the difference? 5 attack difference for the DEX claw. The other one requires a lot of LUK, and 0 DEX, meaning DEXless. Sure, you may say 5 attack gives this one the advantage, but what about the amount of DEX needed to weild this one? That and with the amount if LUK accumulated in stats+gear, the DEXless Hermit / Night Lord will eventually win.

Before, imo, there was a balance. Where Skanda-users and DEXless-Craven users HAD a slight balance, they both were DEXless (base stats), but the only difference was that the Craven-user had to wear DEX gear to weild a Craven. There was a balance because if you studied a NL's LUK-into-att conversion formula, how much LUK = ? att depends on your total weapon attack points vs your total accumulated LUK points. 1 point of att > several points into LUK.

There WAS a balance. Now with the new DEXless claw, there is no balance. DEXless-NLs automatically win if they can manage to land a couple 30s and 60s on the new claw. =/

As for Mages, we already know how this has effected everything. The new elemental LUKless-wand has pissed off many mages/priests/bishops that actually HAS LUK in their stats.

So here's my question, at the rate things are going, do you think Nexon will release more ___-less weapons / equipments, and if so, will this completely shatter the balance between classes?

For example: DEXless-Raven Night Lord vs DEXless-Craven Night Lord
Bishop with a elemental LUKless Wand vs a Bishop with a Doomsday Staff

Discuss!

-Lord of the Night Sky

EDIT: Major edit, regarding Warriors:

Though, with recent patches, the balance between DEXless Warriors vs DEX'ed Warriors are becoming closer, since they are releasing STR-overall scrolls, and the Crimson Arcglaive, which requires DEX to be equipped.

[Corn]

MUA HA HA HA HA US DEXLESS ASSASSINS WILL KS THE WORLD FOREVER!!!

/end

It's going to be near impossible to forge these though..I'm assuming you need, like what, three taos for these?
Don't see any yet on the forging list...none in the fm...so they are incredibly rare...

[Ranylyn]

I agree with you 100%. 90 dexless claw is unbalanced enough, but 13x lukless wand? I don't care how rare they are, they shouldn't exist, period. The classes are unbalanced as is without this bullshit.

[randompeep]

No. The Raven Claw requires exchange questing with Joko. Still incredibly hard to get, though.

[Kawasari Mimoto]

No. The Raven Claw requires exchange questing with Joko. Still incredibly hard to get, though.

Doesn't matter. People already started forging the Balanced Fury. With the amount of DEXless-Hermits/NLs out there, they'll find a way to get them. If anything, within a month from now, or less, you might see a couple clean ones in FM. =/

[randompeep]

Dexless Raven Claw + Balanced Fury = Destruction of all other classes? =x

[Itachi54647]

I know you get the Raven claw from Joko but does anybody know what the forging materials needed to upgrade it, with Fiona to the dexless claw, are?

[Kawasari Mimoto]

Dexless Raven Claw + Balanced Fury = Destruction of all other classes? =x


Not necessarily. More like destruction of "DEXless-Scarab/Mamba/Casters/Craven/Dragon Sleeve". >_>;;

[Corn]

Don't include te balanced fury in this, regular assassins can use them too.

[Kawasari Mimoto]

Don't include te balanced fury in this, regular assassins can use them too.


Well, the Balanced Fury doesn't have much to do with it. But if people HAS managed to forge one, and in fact, one certain person from SW posted SS'es of him having a set.. There are probably more people, but they don't want to attract attention (which is smart).

So, what makes people thinks that DEXless-NLs won't stop trying to get the new DEXless Claw? =| Because a Balanced Fury is almost as hard to get, you need all 3 Taos, and a hell lot of Black Crystals..

[randompeep]

I said that because therefore no one would want to be anything else other than dexless sin or bishop. (and maybe Viper when pirate comes out). >.> x2

@Beta's Balanced Fury: They're even harder to make, as you have to get Joko to cough up 3 Taos, instead of one Raven Claw.

[Corn]

Actually, I'm kind of neutral on this issue (I'm a dexless sin you know =O).


But even I agree it's unbalanced...Nexon should pump a little more points onto that dexed clas.

[Cyanne]

Do you know how hard it is to get a night raven's claw? First of all, you need a base raven's claw, which probably comes from nightshadows. In the several weeks since the patch, only ONE has been reported to be found in the entire global version. There are probably one or a couple more raven claws out there, but it just shows how rare they are. Also, nightshadows are the least hunted and strongest monster of the 4, and the exchange rate doesn't help. You also need a tao to upgrade it to night, which requires specifically the tao of shadows. Getting one tao is hard enough; getting specifically the tao of shadows is harder. Taos are extremely rarely found from the firebrand exchange, and only several have been found since the patch. They're also needed to make all the other fiona items, such as the stars and the fast speed 2h sword, so they'll be very expensive and hard to come by.

Since the night raven claw would be extremely rare and/or expensive, I doubt anyone would be willing to 30% it more than about once, whereas people aren't afraid to 30% skandas and such many times. It seems only useful for white scrolling.

I agree with the lukless wand thing though, it was a stupid idea to put them in in the first place.

[Beserker101]

Although, we can always count on the greediest of damage whores to try and 30% the thing all the way and end up blowing them up, and with these being as hard to get as they are, it would definitely slow down the number of them in circulation.

As for DEXless warriors, yeah, that is getting a little more balanced but only a little. The level 90 DEX sword (night raven wing) is a fast (5) speed, while the dusk (I think, correct me if I am wrong) raven wing has a normal (6) speed but also has more weapon attack on it along with adding more STR while it's clean. Yet again though, both of these are very rare.

[Nikkey]

Don't include te balanced fury in this, regular assassins can use them too.

It favours dexless. 1 more attack is more damage increase for a dexless hermit than for a dex-hermit.

[Corn]

It favours dexless. 1 more attack is more damage increase for a dexless hermit than for a dex-hermit.

Wahh...?

Where did you get that from?

I knew one attack equals more luck as you get higher and higher as a level...but what?

[Nikkey]

Wahh...?

Where did you get that from?

I knew one attack equals more luck as you get higher and higher as a level...but what?

Common sense.

Increase of damage per added attack is (luk * 3.6 + str + dex) / 100 (for max dmg)

if dex is lowered and luk is increased, you'll have an increase in base stats before applying weapon attack in. Therefore, if both paths can use an equip, luckless would be off better if the items contains attack.

Oh and yeah, it favours dexless, but doesn't annihilate a normal dex.

[Corn]

Ah...I always assumed it just depended on your level, not how much luk you have.

[butterfλi]

Ah...I always assumed it just depended on your level, not how much luk you have.

...and how much luk you have is determined by what level you are.

Debating between [stat]less vs "normal" builds is like pitting archmages vs bishops. It's obvious who's gonna win and the game designers aren't bothered with trying to make them equal.

Dexless warriors usually outdamage low/normal dex warriors.
Dexless thieves usually outdamage low/normal dex thieves (fandits/skandas).
Lukless magicians usually outdamage low/normal luk magicians.

[DrRusty]

It would be a great build to go dexless with luk equips and use a well scrolled one of those. That's if ANYONE can get ahold of one at all. I, for one, have never seen nor heard of anyone having one.

[Corn]

Butterfli, that's usually because statless builds usually have more funds.
Someone made a thread that if a warrior with equal funding to a dexless had the same funds, the regular warrior would actually win.

[DrRusty]

Butterfli, that's usually because statless builds usually have more funds.
Someone made a thread that if a warrior with equal funding to a dexless had the same funds, the regular warrior would actually win.

How would a regular warrior outdmg a dexless warrior with equal funds? Warriors only need dex for accuracy and use STR for damage. Scroll what you can't scroll strength, for accuracy, and what you can't scroll for either, for dex.

Helm accuracy scrolls, Earring dex, shoe accuracy, zakum helmet, dex bottom, or overall, and in some cases a HT pendant.

More than enough to get the accuracy you need while going dexless with an atk glove and STR cape.

[Corn]

How would a regular warrior outdmg a dexless warrior with equal funds? Warriors only need dex for accuracy and use STR for damage. Scroll what you can't scroll strength, for accuracy, and what you can't scroll for either, for dex.

Helm accuracy scrolls, Earring dex, shoe accuracy, zakum helmet, dex bottom, or overall, and in some cases a HT pendant.

More than enough to get the accuracy you need while going dexless with an atk glove and STR cape.

Okay, never mind...I found it...but it was on basilmarket.
Shucks.

[Kawasari Mimoto]

Had Nexon limited DEXless-Claws to, let's say Skandas, or lv 70 DEXless Claws, DEXless-Craven/Sleeve/whatever or regular DEX NLs would still have a chance at catching up, if not, be able to dish out more damage-output because of the "1 attack = ? LUK" conversion.

But now, at this rate, I wouldn't be surprised if they would release a lv 11X or 12X DEXless Claw. >_> I hope it never comes out, if anything even tops the new DEXless Claw, I'm just plain-quitting my Night Lord.

-LotNS

[Acim]

It's obvious Nexon favors dexless sins. And I think they WILL release more ___-less weapons. But even thought sins have the highest DPS (if they have SE and a 100 att pot), they have disadvantages as well. Low HP, very expensive, and quite boring.

[Ranylyn]

It's obvious Nexon favors dexless sins. And I think they WILL release more ___-less weapons. But even thought sins have the highest DPS (if they have SE and a 100 att pot), they have disadvantages as well. Low HP, very expensive, and quite boring.

Here's how I see it. Nexon favors money. Encouraging buying resets = money. Nexon doesn't give two shits about the game, I've come to realize, and just that can me earned off it.

[Izzah]

With the arrival of the higher-end maple weapons in GMS, even Low-Dex sins were concerned that a 30-60% scrolled Maple Skanda would tilt the balance further in favor of DEXless.

Even if these Night Raven Claws are so hard to obtain/upgrade, they will eventually trickle into the hands of eager, damage-whoring hermits.

The only way to retain balance is to give Dex claws a more generous amount of WATT.

[DrRusty]

if you ask me, Nexon is only trying to make dexless equal to low dex builds. Using a high lvl claw with the most weapon attack you can scroll out of it, is still the best build. The strongest NLs in the game are not using skandas, they're using cravens and dragon sleeves. Honestly, some people need to wake the hell up and stop thinking dexless is the shiet because it really isnt. Even that 67 atk 1 slot skanda won't stand up to a craven thats not even equally as well scrolled.

[Ranylyn]

if you ask me, Nexon is only trying to make dexless equal to low dex builds. Using a high lvl claw with the most weapon attack you can scroll out of it, is still the best build. The strongest NLs in the game are not using skandas, they're using cravens and dragon sleeves. Honestly, some people need to wake the hell up and stop thinking dexless is the shiet because it really isnt. Even that 67 atk 1 slot skanda won't stand up to a craven thats not even equally as well scrolled.

The Level 90 Dexless claw has 5 less attack than the Level 90 Dex claw. How the hell can anyone claim normal/lowdex compares? I HATE, LOATHE, the works, dexless and lukless with a passion, and even I admit that this is what drives the nail into the coffin of the non dexless.

No, I do not care HOW rare it is; I know many people who WILL pay thousands of RL dollars if need be for one, because they care more about damage than life itself.

[Stereo]

As it's forged-only, it has 15 w.atk less than a perfect Sleve, 11 less than a perfect Craven.

15 atk at 15x (for Hermits anyway) translates to about 90-100 stats. In most cases, this is enough to push the balance in favour of the Sleve, just because they have so much "natural" dex - 25 base, 15-35 helm, 10-15 shoes, 22 pendant - none of this has luk equivalent gear, and that's already making up 80-100 stats, which is enough to make the 140-150 dex requirement reasonable, since you're only trading off 40-60 luk for 15 w.atk.

'course that depends on getting a good Sleve/Craven, but it's more possible than a Raven Claw right now.

[Blankout]

Although I own several lukless characters (not because of the damage, but because of the cost), I have to say that this is definitely going too far. At first, the only stat-less weapons were the level 35 and 43 Maple weapons. Now there's the level 64 ones, which isn't too bad, but a level 90 dexless claw and 130 lukless wand/staff? That's not good for the "oldie" characters or to the characters that followed normal stat build guides.

I've also noticed that barely anyone is complaining about str-less archers.

[Worthyness]

this makes me glad that str-less archers are LOLfail =P

[Magus]

To answer the topic's question: Yes. I do think Nexon/Wizet will continue to make [Stat]less weapons, and most likely they will be gach only as well.

[Arroz]

Doesn't matter. People already started forging the Balanced Fury. With the amount of DEXless-Hermits/NLs out there, they'll find a way to get them. If anything, within a month from now, or less, you might see a couple clean ones in FM. =/

pics or it didn't happen I haven't even heard of anyone getting a tao of harmony yet so please don't talk out of your ass. The stat-less role has always been one for people who had alot of time money and drive. Notice how those weapons are gach? They are concerned with filling their pockets so even with this around it would not grossly DISBALANCE GAMEPLAY AS IT WOULD DRIVE AWAY CUSTOMERS

[randompeep]

Someone found them.
http://www.sleepywood.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1485224&highlight=balanced+fury&page=7
Though yes it is SW, so I dunno...
There's a youtube, too. (Though that also doesn't look real, either, in my opinion)

[Kawasari Mimoto]

pics or it didn't happen I haven't even heard of anyone getting a tao of harmony yet so please don't talk out of your ass. The stat-less role has always been one for people who had alot of time money and drive. Notice how those weapons are gach? They are concerned with filling their pockets so even with this around it would not grossly DISBALANCE GAMEPLAY AS IT WOULD DRIVE AWAY CUSTOMERS

I never talked out of my ass, I got proof. In fact, no need to prove it, randompeep just did, lol... A guy on SW posted that he has the Balanced Fury, other ppl ON SouthPerry posted that they have the Tao pieces, each person individually owning a piece, I mean. So before you accuse ME of pulling stuff out of my ass, I'd appreciate it if you looked into it more, thanks.

[randompeep]

Oh great... Isaac mentioned in his Masteria thread that there are Devil Rain Throwing Stars in the data. o_O

[IsaacGS]

This is a position I've held for a really long time now. Luck-less has completely destroyed the magician class... And we all know the Dexless sin stereotype. For warriors it's not such a big deal, and with archers Strengthless isn't worth the effort, but it's still a danger because those two, even without statless builds, are the most popular.




Oh great... Isaac mentioned in his Masteria thread that there are Devil Rain Throwing Stars in the data. o_O
yes, but they don't have any stats or anything yet, they could be average. For some reason whenever I look at them (no images, but you know what I mean) I always get the feeling they're not better than steelies. No reasoning behind that, it's just how I feel about them.

[RFSurg]

Putting points into base dex is the easier/cheaper way to advance your character stats. For knowing less about stats and spending less on gear you get lower damage. For putting more work/being more knowledgable about stat builds, you get more damage. Characters with more than 25 base dex, which would be capped at a precise value to equip their claw with dex from equips, and a lot of funding can catch up AND get ahead of their dexless equivalents if they know what they're doing as others have pointed out.

The theif class suffers less from this(if you could call it suffering). Warriors don't really need any base dex at all(again if they know what they're doing and have sufficient funds) and warriors weapons that allow dex warriors to catch up are rare and expensive. If anyone can complain about -less characters it's mages. At the momment, no mage has any reason to put raise their base luk with the 130 lukless wands with more base matk than any other wand/staff luk or not(ignoring the 16x staves which require an unreasonable ammmount of luk/level). Once they're actually implemented correctly it's still much easier and cheaper and cheaper to have 4 base luk and use lukless weapons than using luk equips.

[GummyBear]

From what I've gathered, level 120 items has builtin bonuses once it levels. Perhaps that could be something that turns the tide. Other than that, the dexless raven claw is extremely rare, and thus it's not practical counting them just yet, and the same goes for balanced furies.

[FinalHeart]

Definetely stupid. Right now I'm making a normal DEX bandit (still 1st job though), and people are commenting on how low my damage is, although I think the wep atk range is 28~130 or something like that.

That's probably perfectly normal, but the DEXless dagger thieves are hitting like 500 by level 30, so it makes me look like crap. I'm by no means poor, but considering how much money I'll eventually poor into ME, I wouldn't be able to afford DEXless, maybe not even low DEX.

The if you go ___-less you are supposed to have more damage, but not so much that it's uneven. You shouldn't be hitting three times more than a normal (enter stat here), it's just unbalanced.

[Trystan28]

Agreed. It seems to be Stat-less or die these days. And Nexon recognizes that. I don't *think* there's an ulterior motive, I think the stat-less equips are just their way of recognizing that these are popular builds and trying to provide "something for everyone." Unfortunately, that also translates into newer players being put between a rock and a hard place. If you want to fit in, so to speak with other players, you need to go stat-less. To do that, you need special equips, scrolls, etc., that all costs millions of mesos. All well and good when you've been playing a while and have had time to amass wealth through drops and merchanting. If you're new, well, what are your options? Oh, lets spend lots of real world money to get gach items to sell. Oh well, now we can't do that anymore, so... let's face it. So-called "normal" builds will never go away completely, as most people will need to have at least one "normal" character, if only to fund their others.

[mEanEst]

It's just the subject of money. They want you to oh-so reduce your stats to that perfect 4/4 or 4/4/4.

If you also noticed, most -Less items can only be obtained by Gachapon, such as the famous PAC, Elemental Stave/Wands, etc.

[Hatsu]

we need lv 90 stars(40+ att) that require 150 dex :B

[Zaotsu]

It's just the subject of money. They want you to oh-so reduce your stats to that perfect 4/4 or 4/4/4.

If you also noticed, most -Less items can only be obtained by Gachapon, such as the famous PAC, Elemental Stave/Wands, etc.


How are PAC's considered a stat-less item? They help both normal and stat-less classes. The only cape I can even think of that has a requirement is the Taru Spirit Cape. The issue of an item being stat-less is negligible if all / a majority of such items are, especially with capes.