Cannon vs. demolition.

[Takebacker]

A friend and I were having a discussion recently, comparing these two skills to determine if they could possibly even out. For comparison's sake, I imagined a Viper and Captain fighting a boss. That way, 1HKOing wouldn't be an outcome.

Viper's Demolition is only usable while Super Transformed, and it is spammable, but the full animation takes a relatively long time to complete. Demolition attacks a single monster 8 times at 400% dmg each hit, or 3200% damage. A Captain's Battleship Cannon is only usable while on board the Battleship, and it does 380% damage 4 times on a single target, or 1520% total. Judging from just that, Vipers would sound like they destroy Captains in DPS, but there's one thing left to consider:

Could a Captain use cannon 2-3 times in the time it takes to use one demolition? With a Captain's attacking speed and the time it takes for the demolition animation to complete, I'd imagine it's possible. If a Captain could pull off 2 Cannons while a Viper uses 1 Demo, it would then be 3040% vs. 3200%. Not equal, but pretty close.

Note: For training speed comparison and bossing possibility the viper has wind booster, the captain does not.

[Hazzy]

One advantage of Demolition is the time of immunity you get. :x
Although Vipers have a set time they can transform for - Captains are only limited to the damage they take from the boss. :x

I'll go watch some videos, but I'm betting on three or so Cannon shots between each Demolition.

Demolition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay1LgKXPBIw
Cannon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhvPlKtr2Q

I'd say its three to four Cannons per Demolition. Just using my eyes though. :x

[Takebacker]

One advantage of Demolition is the time of immunity you get. :x
Although Vipers have a set time they can transform for - Captains are only limited to the damage they take from the boss. :x

I'll go watch some videos, but I'm betting on three or so Cannon shots between each Demolition.

Demolition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay1LgKXPBIw
Cannon:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhvPlKtr2Q

I'd say its three to four Cannons per Demolition. Just using my eyes though. :x

Far as i can see through the first vid one demolition is roughly 3 seconds (?). I can't tell the time for cannon as well as i can for demolition but i saw it to be roughly 1-1.5 seconds per cast?

[Hazzy]

Get Fiel to extract the information from the Client? XD
I think it's stored there....

[JoeTang]

Cannon shoots at 100spm from what I recall of the other thread.

[Beserker101]

I watched the vids at the same time and cannon definitely has enough speed behind it to hit multiple times per demolition.

[xDae]

I watched the vids at the same time and cannon definitely has enough speed behind it to hit multiple times per demolition.
But remember, most Captains keep Battleship at level 1 for a long time, to avoid the long cooldown. So it gets destroyed quite easily in bosses

And even if you bothered demounting and remounting to keep it alive, you miss out on spamming Battle Cannon

[Devil]

When Vipers wouldn't have Timeleap (countdown reset), yeah Cannon would equal Demolition in DSP at bosses... however when a battleship is destroyed, there is no more Cannon to shoot, so it's pretty useless at bosses...

But again, Vipers have Timeleap, this results in when they party with 6 Vipers in 1 party, that they can use SuperTransform for 16 out of every 20 minutes (!!!), and when they're not transformed they always have Fist for the other 4 minutes...

No really, when it comes to bossing, Captains are "ok" but Vipers just outdamage EVERY class with their Demolition parade...

Timeleap is the winner here... especially when there are 6 Timeleap-able people in 1 party...

[KaidaTan]

You forgot that since the Captain would be bossing, he would use homing on it to do slightly more damage. 400% damage per cannon ball.

[Hazzy]

But remember, most Captains keep Battleship at level 1 for a long time, to avoid the long cooldown. So it gets destroyed quite easily in bosses

And even if you bothered demounting and remounting to keep it alive, you miss out on spamming Battle Cannon

Did anyone ever find out how much endurance Battleship has? I was under the impression there was little difference between level 1 and 10.

[Arroz]

When Vipers wouldn't have Timeleap (countdown reset), yeah Cannon would equal Demolition in DSP at bosses... however when a battleship is destroyed, there is no more Cannon to shoot, so it's pretty useless at bosses...

But again, Vipers have Timeleap, this results in when they party with 6 Vipers in 1 party, that they can use SuperTransform for 16 out of every 20 minutes (!!!), and when they're not transformed they always have Fist for the other 4 minutes...

No really, when it comes to bossing, Captains are "ok" but Vipers just outdamage EVERY class with their Demolition parade...

Timeleap is the winner here... especially when there are 6 Timeleap-able people in 1 party...

that makes about as much sense as a 6 shadower party. "OMG WII HAB G0DM0D3 43\/3r LOLOLOLl0l0l01l1l1110101oneone"

Why compare apples to oranges people both sub classes are fairly badass, battleship has its advantages but for the most part it isn't a bossing skill. It seems more suitable to buff the captain in training considering their plethora of immobilizing and de-aggroing abilities.

[blitzkrieg]

But remember, most Captains keep Battleship at level 1 for a long time, to avoid the long cooldown. So it gets destroyed quite easily in bosses

And even if you bothered demounting and remounting to keep it alive, you miss out on spamming Battle Cannon
Uh what? Have you even seen a Korean Captain build? Most of them max Battleship right after maxing Cannon. And getting off & back on the Battleship takes a lot less time than the cooldown would..

I agree with Arroz on one aspect though, these two skills shouldn't even really be compared. But Battleship is definitely a worthwhile bossing skill. Cannon is the most powerful attack a Captain has, of course they'll be using Battleship at bosses.

[Devil]

that makes about as much sense as a 6 shadower party. "OMG WII HAB G0DM0D3 43\/3r LOLOLOLl0l0l01l1l1110101oneone"

Why compare apples to oranges people both sub classes are fairly badass, battleship has its advantages but for the most part it isn't a bossing skill. It seems more suitable to buff the captain in training considering their plethora of immobilizing and de-aggroing abilities.Vipers are unlike NightLords / Bowmasters, NOT dependant on HB (high hp), nor do they need constant healing from a Bishop. Besides that they do almost double damage of Shadowers in Super Transform (that is with 1on1 dmg) and besides that they have an insane RANGE with Demolition (TT/Hurricane like)...

When Vipers keep doing Demolition for 16 out of every 20 minutes, they also have godmode from their own skill (same as Boomerang Step from Shadowers). And since they will hardly get hit they won't need many pots, or healing from a Bishop...

That's why 6 Viper party's are VERY good possible, they just simply don't -need- any class to support them. And more party dmg / second = best for Boss runs.

Just see them as Night Lords with double HP and NL's having godmode while throwing Triple Throw...
If NL's would have had this at the moment, oh lord, save the drama that would cause... (VVTF!!! OVERPOWERED!!! NERF!!! NERF!!!)... :')

No really, I'm playing a lvl 160 Viper and Captain atm and testing it how they perform in different situations, and (sadly) I can't come to any other conclusion that Vipers will overpower and out-use any other class currently in maplestory. Captains are "OK" but not THAT godly...

But that's excactly why Nexon made them... Every NL-DPS-fanboy will needs to switch to Viper to be able to KS others again and be wanted at HT runs... and when all these people switch... $$$$$ for Nexon for the MASS 2x Exp card usage...

Nexon is so smart my friend... Just create a class that's a tad better then the current nr.1 classes and everyone wants to play it and Nexon sells NX $$$$ like it's warm bread.... ;)

[Takebacker]

You forgot that since the Captain would be bossing, he would use homing on it to do slightly more damage. 400% damage per cannon ball.

Yeah, we found that out soon after the thread was posted on basil. Kazoo and i both thought that if the firing rate was a lot more then demolition that it wouldn't make a difference but you are right.

1 cannon + AH = 18xx%. (too lazy to find the exact number at the moment >_>)


When Vipers wouldn't have Timeleap (countdown reset), yeah Cannon would equal Demolition in DSP at bosses... however when a battleship is destroyed, there is no more Cannon to shoot, so it's pretty useless at bosses...

But again, Vipers have Timeleap, this results in when they party with 6 Vipers in 1 party, that they can use SuperTransform for 16 out of every 20 minutes (!!!), and when they're not transformed they always have Fist for the other 4 minutes...

No really, when it comes to bossing, Captains are "ok" but Vipers just outdamage EVERY class with their Demolition parade...

Timeleap is the winner here... especially when there are 6 Timeleap-able people in 1 party...

Am i missing something? O_o How can 6 vipers use time leap 16 times in 20 minutes? You sure you don't mean 6? >_>


Cannon shoots at 100spm from what I recall of the other thread.

While demolition does how much?


Uh what? Have you even seen a Korean Captain build? Most of them max Battleship right after maxing Cannon. And getting off & back on the Battleship takes a lot less time than the cooldown would..

I agree with Arroz on one aspect though, these two skills shouldn't even really be compared. But Battleship is definitely a worthwhile bossing skill. Cannon is the most powerful attack a Captain has, of course they'll be using Battleship at bosses.

I was hoping you could add your two cents but why exactly to they max battleship after cannon? How does the durability compare from level 1 to 10? None of us really know but hopefully you can give us some sort of comparison or ideally some sort of estimate?


But remember, most Captains keep Battleship at level 1 for a long time, to avoid the long cooldown. So it gets destroyed quite easily in bosses

And even if you bothered demounting and remounting to keep it alive, you miss out on spamming Battle Cannon

Not spamming it is fine as long as i can use it all the time (if i'm smart) unlike transform + demolition.

[blitzkrieg]

I was hoping you could add your two cents but why exactly to they max battleship after cannon? How does the durability compare from level 1 to 10? None of us really know but hopefully you can give us some sort of comparison or ideally some sort of estimate?I'm not really sure of the durability to be honest, but I'm assuming it increases a lot as you level it because I've never seen a build that doesn't max Battleship right after Cannon. I tried asking an 18x Captain on kMS but he didn't really understand the question, lol. I'll keep asking around and see if I can get a solid answer.

[Devil]

Am i missing something? O_o How can 6 vipers use time leap 16 times in 20 minutes? You sure you don't mean 6? >_>I'll explain:
- Super Transform has a duration of 2 minutes, with a cooldown of 4 minutes, so for soloing it's like:
---> "2 mins super transform / 2 minutes normal = 10 out of every 20 minutes Super Transform"
- Timeleap (max) has a cooldown of 20 minutes

6-Viper party mode results in:
|01|02| |03|04| |05|06| .|07|08| |09|10| |11|12| .|13|14| |15|16| |17|18| .|19|20|
|ST-ST||TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |NORM| |ST-ST| |NORM|

16min SuperTransform & 4min Normal

5-Viper 1-Shadower party mode results in:
|01|02| .|03|04| |05|06| .|07|08| |09|10| |11|12| .|13|14| |15|16| |17|18| .|19|20|
|ST-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |NORM| |ST-ST| |NORM| .|NORM|
|SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |-----| .|-----| .|-----| ..|-----|

14min SuperTransform & 6min normal + 6min Smokescreen

These are a cycles that can be repeated forever. And for Smokescreen, you can put-in any other skill with a cooldown that can be Timeleap-ed... :)

When they need the first Timeleap again (minute 3 of the second cycle), the first Viper has cooldowned it's Timeleap because 20 minutes have passed since it was used in the first cycle... :)

[z0mgc00k13]

When Vipers wouldn't have Timeleap (countdown reset), yeah Cannon would equal Demolition in DSP at bosses... however when a battleship is destroyed, there is no more Cannon to shoot, so it's pretty useless at bosses...

But again, Vipers have Timeleap, this results in when they party with 6 Vipers in 1 party, that they can use SuperTransform for 16 out of every 20 minutes (!!!), and when they're not transformed they always have Fist for the other 4 minutes...

No really, when it comes to bossing, Captains are "ok" but Vipers just outdamage EVERY class with their Demolition parade...

Timeleap is the winner here... especially when there are 6 Timeleap-able people in 1 party...

Timeleap can't be used to reset other Vipers' Timeleap.

[Rei]

Timeleap can't be used to reset other Vipers' Timeleap.

Well he obviously knows that.
If he didn't he'd just say to put two Vipers in one party and that's that.
He means the 20-minute cooldown that max Time Leap has will be over by the time everyone gets out of Super Transformed mode and used their Time Leap skill.

Except for those few odd minutes, but they'd live to be un-transformed for that long.

[Dusk]

That's still completely unrealistic. It'd be pretty damn hard to organize a 6 Viper party in which everyone knew exactly when to cast what. A single person dying or d/cing would throw off the entire pattern. Not to mention you have no SE, no Bishop support ability, and no HB (Vipers have more hp than ranged classes but still significantly less than every warrior class).

Theoretically, a 6 Viper party would be very powerful. But in practice, it wouldn't fulfill your expectations and would probably end up significantly weaker than your standard DrK+BM+Bishop+3 NL party.

I'm much more interested in making a Captain than a Viper, so I'm also wondering how much the durability of the battleship increases as you level it up.

Also, I really don't think Demo has the range of an archer o_o It's probably equivalent to Boomerang Step range. I'm not even sure if Captain range matches archer range. We've had more range than any other class forever (yes, archers do have slightly more range than NLs), that would really suck.

[JoeTang]

http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3955/demobsho5.png
Someone said Demolition had the range of an Archer? LOL.

[Hazzy]

Time Laps 30 comes from Horntail. :x Not exactly easy to get.


http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3955/demobsho5.png
Someone said Demolition had the range of an Archer? LOL.

o_o
Whoa, what is that?
B>copy. xD (It's da smex)


(Vipers have more hp than ranged classes but still significantly less than every warrior class).

Twenty levels less. That's what... 2k? :f3:

[Eriko]

More like 1k less hp.

[Devil]

That's still completely unrealistic. It'd be pretty damn hard to organize a 6 Viper party in which everyone knew exactly when to cast what. A single person dying or d/cing would throw off the entire pattern. Not to mention you have no SE, no Bishop support ability, and no HB (Vipers have more hp than ranged classes but still significantly less than every warrior class).

Theoretically, a 6 Viper party would be very powerful. But in practice, it wouldn't fulfill your expectations and would probably end up significantly weaker than your standard DrK+BM+Bishop+3 NL party.
If a DK dies/disconnects in that party, the party is also history because BM's/NL's die in 1 hit at Horntail and friends... ;). With Vipers that won't happen, they won't die then...

Also, don't forget that your party is a 4 attacker party (DK/BS just don't cut it in dmg at bosses), 6 Viper party's are 6 attackers, so they will do more dmg then 4 attacker partys...

But what I wanted to say is that you can see 6 Viper party's as 6 NL's party's with NL's that have warrior like HP (800 HP less then normal warriors), and godmode while throwing TT... If this was true for NL's or BM's, there would never be DK's in party's anymore, and just 2-3 Bishops for revive (btw don't forget Timeleap also resets revive, making multiple Bishops also unneeded...).


Also, I really don't think Demo has the range of an archer o_o It's probably equivalent to Boomerang Step range. I'm not even sure if Captain range matches archer range. We've had more range than any other class forever (yes, archers do have slightly more range than NLs), that would really suck.Well I meant to the vertical range as well. For example, at Skelegons, Vipers can just snipe 1-hit kill skelegons while standing on a lower platform where they won't get hit. A NL/BM can't do this because it's vertical range is at least half of it. But you have to play one to understand what I mean...

Also, with the "range" I meant that they can hit any part of zakum/HT/etc without any difficulties as a short ranged character, because of their "large range" :)

-----------

All in all, just see the Viper class as the Joker card in Maple. Virtually they can mimmic all cooldown party-skills every party member has, with giving every party member the ability to remove the cooldown on their skills:

Having 5 Vipers plus:
- One Bishop = 6x Revive
- One Shadower = 6x Smokescreen
- One Paladin = 6x Heavens Hammer
- One Marksman = 6x Snipe in a row
- Etc...

It's like having a party of 6 of the same class members in 1 party, while there is only 1 class that uses it's "Ultimate Skill", however now, He/She can use it 6x in a row...

[Dusk]

Twenty levels less. That's what... 2k?

Vipers don't gain the same amount of HP as warriors per level, and they don't have as many HP bonuses from 1st and 2nd job advancements. Keep in mind that Pirate base HP gain is the same as archers and thieves (as demonstrated by Captains having roughly the same amount of HP).

Their Improving Max HP increase also only adds 30 HP per point rather than 40 like warriors.

So they're gaining 20-24 HP per level until level 30, when they gradually move up to 50-54 HP. They don't get the HP bonus warriors gain, and 50-54 is quite a bit lower than 62-66.

I don't have exact numbers for the kind of HP Vipers will have, but I expect their survivability to be on the level, or slightly less than Shadowers. They'll need HB, or some HP washing to survive HT before end-game levels.

Edit: Pulled a random screenshot of a Buccaneer.
http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a291/TLoZ_Link/Maple0080.jpg
Let's call it 3850 HP at 82. That's pretty high, a lot higher than my BM at 122. With a gain of 50-54 (avg 52) a level, they'll hit 8k hp at level 162. With some HP washing, that's probably 13x-14xish. It's roughly on the same level as Shadowers. My main point is, they definitely aren't as durable as some of you are making them out to be. They are not NLs with warrior HP. Heroes hit 8k HP around 120 with absolutely no washing (I think). It's well over a 2k HP difference by 16x.

And what's with the F3 at 2k HP? I only have 3.3k on my BM with 200 HP from equips. 2k is a lot.

[Russt]

6x Snipe isn't that useful. Its cooldown at max is only 10 seconds anyway, which means you already get 120 Snipes to 1 Time Leap (adding 5 Vipers would only make that 125), and if it's not anything less than 60 seconds, it's not much worth using in the first place.

[KaidaTan]

I was actually very interested in this topic because I was deciding which Pirate to be. Anyway, what I did was make my Bowmaster into an imaginary Pirate. I made her into a Gunslinger with nearly the same equips, an equally well-scrolled Gun, and Eternal Bullets. I made her into an Infighter with nearly the same equips (except I gave the items that could have STR, STR. Such as the cape), an equally well-scrolled fist, and with and without the +20 attack from Energy Charge. I put them both at level 163 (the level I was when I did the calcs), pretended the weapon they were wearing was level 100 but gave them enough of their secondary stat to equip their 110 weapon with level 19 MW, and pretended they had maxed all the skills necessary for these calculations.

Here's what I got. All the numbers you see are average damage and have both characters using a Warrior Elixer.

Captain (No Monster Defense) (Cannonball is calculated at 100 attacks a minute, Rapid Fire at 500 a minute)
54419 - Rapid Fire DPS
61222 - Rapid Fire DPS with maxed Advanced Homing
103398 - Battleship Cannon DPS
108840 - Battleship Cannon DPS with maxed Advanced Homing

Captain (2000 Monster Defense)
39753 - Rapid Fire DPS
44722 - Rapid Fire DPS with maxed Advanced Homing
75531 - Battleship Cannon DPS
79506 - Battleship Cannon DPS with maxed Advanced Homing

Viper (No Monster Defense) (I have no idea what the attack speed of Demolition is, so I put damage per Demolition)
148128 - Damage per Demolition
171648 - Damage per Demolition with charged energy

Viper (2000 Monster Defense)
112928 - Damage per Demolition
136448 - Damage per Demolition with charged energy

Oh for comparison, here's my Bowmaster's DPS at 163.
94716 - Hurricane DPS without Monster Defense
73156 - Hurricane DPS with 2000 Monster Defense

Please, please, someone find out the attack speed of Demolition in attacks/minute so that these calculations don't look so stupid.

[Dusk]

It's looking like Battleship outdamages Demolition if it can hit just twice per Demo. That sounds like a generous estimate for Battleship's speed.

[Stereo]

Having 5 Vipers plus:
- One Bishop = 6x Revive
- One Shadower = 6x Smokescreen
- One Paladin = 6x Heavens Hammer
- One Marksman = 6x Snipe in a row
- Etc...

It's like having a party of 6 of the same class members in 1 party, while there is only 1 class that uses it's "Ultimate Skill", however now, He/She can use it 6x in a row...

Why not optimise?

4 vipers + 2 bishops = 10x revive (per 20 minutes)
3 vipers + 3 bishops = 12x revive
2 vipers + 4 bishops = 12x revive
1 viper + 5 bishops = 10x revive

It seems like 2-3 vipers per party would make the most sense if you're just going for max spammability on cooldown skills. What it is would depend on actual availability of decent leveled characters (2 people with Time Leap maxed are easier to find than 3)

[Takebacker]

I was actually very interested in this topic because I was deciding which Pirate to be. Anyway, what I did was make my Bowmaster into an imaginary Pirate. I made her into a Gunslinger with nearly the same equips, an equally well-scrolled Gun, and Eternal Bullets. I made her into an Infighter with nearly the same equips (except I gave the items that could have STR, STR. Such as the cape), an equally well-scrolled fist, and with and without the +20 attack from Energy Charge. I put them both at level 163 (the level I was when I did the calcs), pretended the weapon they were wearing was level 100 but gave them enough of their secondary stat to equip their 110 weapon with level 19 MW, and pretended they had maxed all the skills necessary for these calculations.

Here's what I got. All the numbers you see are average damage and have both characters using a Warrior Elixer.

Captain (No Monster Defense) (Cannonball is calculated at 100 attacks a minute, Rapid Fire at 500 a minute)
54419 - Rapid Fire DPS
61222 - Rapid Fire DPS with maxed Advanced Homing
103398 - Battleship Cannon DPS
108840 - Battleship Cannon DPS with maxed Advanced Homing

Captain (2000 Monster Defense)
39753 - Rapid Fire DPS
44722 - Rapid Fire DPS with maxed Advanced Homing
75531 - Battleship Cannon DPS
79506 - Battleship Cannon DPS with maxed Advanced Homing

Viper (No Monster Defense) (I have no idea what the attack speed of Demolition is, so I put damage per Demolition)
148128 - Damage per Demolition
171648 - Damage per Demolition with charged energy

Viper (2000 Monster Defense)
112928 - Damage per Demolition
136448 - Damage per Demolition with charged energy

Oh for comparison, here's my Bowmaster's DPS at 163.
94716 - Hurricane DPS without Monster Defense
73156 - Hurricane DPS with 2000 Monster Defense

Please, please, someone find out the attack speed of Demolition in attacks/minute so that these calculations don't look so stupid.

I would go with 1 demo = roughly 3 seconds.

[KaidaTan]

I would go with 1 demo = roughly 3 seconds.

That sounds really really slow. I don't think it's anywhere near that slow.

[Takebacker]

That sounds really really slow. I don't think it's anywhere near that slow.

Eh, i got that number through just watching a video and timing it. Lol. Probably not as accurate as getting a viper and spamming demo for a minute, but close enough.

[Arrg]

I'll explain:
- Super Transform has a duration of 2 minutes, with a cooldown of 4 minutes, so for soloing it's like:
---> "2 mins super transform / 2 minutes normal = 10 out of every 20 minutes Super Transform"
- Timeleap (max) has a cooldown of 20 minutes

6-Viper party mode results in:
|01|02| |03|04| |05|06| .|07|08| |09|10| |11|12| .|13|14| |15|16| |17|18| .|19|20|
|ST-ST||TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |NORM| |ST-ST| |NORM|

16min SuperTransform & 4min Normal

5-Viper 1-Shadower party mode results in:
|01|02| .|03|04| |05|06| .|07|08| |09|10| |11|12| .|13|14| |15|16| |17|18| .|19|20|
|ST-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |TL-ST| |NORM| |ST-ST| |NORM| .|NORM|
|SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |SS|--| |-----| .|-----| .|-----| ..|-----|

14min SuperTransform & 6min normal + 6min Smokescreen

These are a cycles that can be repeated forever. And for Smokescreen, you can put-in any other skill with a cooldown that can be Timeleap-ed... :)

When they need the first Timeleap again (minute 3 of the second cycle), the first Viper has cooldowned it's Timeleap because 20 minutes have passed since it was used in the first cycle... :)

It wouldn't really be a good idea to use smokescreen, considering vipers are invulnerable to attacks during demolition's cast.

[DeeD]

I really don't see how 6+ revives are that helpful. I've never seen more than 2 revives in a zak run. I think timeleap is overrated. Fortunately the class it helps the most is its own class.

I'd really love to see a normal zak party stand up against the Viper party. I mean they have to max super transform, time leap, and demo, until they can boss? so lvl 150 vipers will be great at bossing? No MW either, since they don't need bishops.

Also @Devil: DK's are attackers too. Don't be mean.

[0mgP1r4tes]

It wouldn't really be a good idea to use smokescreen, considering vipers are invulnerable to attacks during demolition's cast.
They are invulnerable to physical attacks. Magic attacks can still affect them

[NoWaizMatt]

I highly doubt these are correct calculations, and I'm probably gonna be flamed.

In the vid of the captain at newties, it seemed about 3 canons for every demolition. The average damage I saw was about 6k a hit, 24k per blast, and 72k per demo. I watched an other video of a viper at Levi, a boss with higher def. The average damage (not knowing the level) was 13k, and 8 hits. 13kx8=104k. 104k damage - 72k damage in the same amoutn of time...

[Takebacker]

I highly doubt these are correct calculations, and I'm probably gonna be flamed.

In the vid of the captain at newties, it seemed about 3 canons for every demolition. The average damage I saw was about 6k a hit, 24k per blast, and 72k per demo. I watched an other video of a viper at Levi, a boss with higher def. The average damage (not knowing the level) was 13k, and 8 hits. 13kx8=104k. 104k damage - 72k damage in the same amoutn of time...

Er, i saw 6-9k per cannon mostly leaning toward the median damage of 8k. Meaning 24-36k is the min/max for her cannon.

Also i don't think we know the level and equipment differences of those two...it was just to compare speed of their attacks not the damage differences.

[Bribery]

I highly doubt these are correct calculations, and I'm probably gonna be flamed.

In the vid of the captain at newties, it seemed about 3 canons for every demolition. The average damage I saw was about 6k a hit, 24k per blast, and 72k per demo. I watched an other video of a viper at Levi, a boss with higher def. The average damage (not knowing the level) was 13k, and 8 hits. 13kx8=104k. 104k damage - 72k damage in the same amoutn of time...

Is this the video you're talking about? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhvPlKtr2Q) If so, her Cannon is only level 18.

This is a good demonstration of max Cannon. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1El59ssJTa8) I believe he is 14x.

[Takebacker]

Is this the video you're talking about? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhvPlKtr2Q) If so, her Cannon is only level 18.

This is a good demonstration of max Cannon. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1El59ssJTa8) I believe he is 14x.

I still don't get why at the end he didn't use torpedo at the end. Does he not have it?

[Bribery]

I still don't get why at the end he didn't use torpedo at the end. Does he not have it?

His is level 1 I believe. He does use it once at some point in the video. My guess is that max Cannon outdamages level 1 Torpedo.

[Takebacker]

His is level 1 I believe. He does use it once at some point in the video. My guess is that max Cannon outdamages level 1 Torpedo.

Well if you have a mob of 4, they're kinda even i guess.

Level 1 torpedo = 390%. (i think)
Max cannon = 380% per cannon.

I think they both fire at rougly same rate, so it's just a matter of what's more stable/uses less MP.

[NoWaizMatt]

Is this the video you're talking about? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4FhvPlKtr2Q) If so, her Cannon is only level 18.

This is a good demonstration of max Cannon. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1El59ssJTa8) I believe he is 14x.

So, he's averaging about 9k, which is still 36k damage. If they are both 14x, the viper and captain, their DPS seems close to equal, given in one second you can get 4 demos. With charged energy, demo does about 36k, also, so it comes out to about even. THe video I saw of demo, though, looked like 13x who have yet to max demo, and it was without charged energy.

[Takebacker]

So, he's averaging about 9k, which is still 36k damage. If they are both 14x, the viper and captain, their DPS seems close to equal, given in one second you can get 4 demos. With charged energy, demo does about 36k, also, so it comes out to about even. THe video I saw of demo, though, looked like 13x who have yet to max demo, and it was without charged energy.

Er...you might want to specify levels...a viper might or might not have max demo/transform so he might not be doing 10k per demo yet. Consider that most/all vipers get a some level of wind booster, fist, snatch, and dragon strike by level 150.

Also, don't try and say "given in one second you can get 4 demos". We don't know that kind of time data meaning you could just be assuming that they're equal. Just go by average damage and then calculate the damage output after 3 cannons/1 demo.