[Debate] A NightLords new best friend?

[KatanaKiwi]

With Neo Black Mamba being released last patch, and critical rings being released soon there will be a new kind of nightlord, focusing on a high critical rate rather then going lowdex for more luk, or high dex to bennefit from the high weapon attack a Lampion has to offer.

What im trying to do here is compare the dps of the Lampion and the Neo black mamba user. I will use 2 perfectly scrolled claws (acchieveable for more and more top players), and for the rest i will use good, but not "Godly" items.

A Night Lords new best friend?

Claw stats:
Perfect Neo Black Mamba
Required DEX: 125
Weapon Attack: +40
DEX: +5
Durability: 20000
Fast(4)
7 Slots

Scrolls: 9x 5 atk 1 Dex 1 Luk (pink scroll)
Above average: 5 atk

Critical:
Probability - 10%
Damage - 10%

Perfect Reverse Lampion
Required DEX: 160
Weapon Attack: 54
LUK+8
Fast (5)
7 Slots

Scrolls: 9x 5 atk 1 Dex 1 Luk (pink scroll)
Level-up: 6 atk 6 Luk 3 Dex
Maker: 3 atk 5Luk 3 atk
Above average: 5 atk

If we take in accord the required dex difference between the weapons we find ourself comparing like this
Mamba 58 Stats, 95 Atk
Lampion 40 Stats, 126 Atk

Critical dmg output
Neo Black Mamba
50% base crit - 200% dmg
10% neo black mamba - 10% dmg
10% critical ring - 10% dmg
15% sharp eyes - 40% dmg
--total--
85% critical - 260% dmg
15% normal - 100% dmg

0,85 x 2,6 = 221%
0,15 x 1,0 = 15%
total output 236% dmg

Reverse Lampion
50% base crit - 200% dmg
10% crit ring - 10% dmg
15% sharp eyes - 40% dmg
--total--
75% critical - 250% dmg
25% normal - 100% dmg

0,75 x 2,5 = 187,5%
0,25 x 1,0 = 25%
total output 212,5% dmg

(236 - 212,5) / 212,5 = 11,05% dmg increase

Critical versus Atk
As described above the total damage output (ignoring atk) would increase by 11,05% by switching to a Neo Mamba, meaning you would need to decrease your total weapon attack with less then 11,05% in order for the Mamba to have better dps output. For the sake of simplifying things I will convert the Dex requirement and Luk bonus from the 2 equips into weapon attack, however I will do this at a rate that is beneficial for the Lampion. Because Dps matters the most at bosses I will also add an Onyx apple into the mix, since most nightlords dont care about which weapon wins during training, they are nightlords for the sake of bossing.

Lets assume 1 Dex = 1 Luk = 0,2 W.atk
This means 5 Luk equals 1 W.atk, under the influence of an onyx apple a Strong nightlord can hit 4:1, a godly nightlord can touch 3:1

the 18 stats advantage for the Mamba would become 3,6 atk
Mamba 95 + 3,6 Atk -> 98,6
Lampion 126 Atk

For the other equips I will use Great but not overpowered equips. Stats such as luk and dex wont matter as they will be the same for both nightlords, and we allready converted the stat differences into weapon attack, thus they wont affect our calculation. true that this wont give us a 100% accurate outcome, however the difference is miniscule, and will always favor the Lampion.

10 atk belt
12 atk Mon
19 atk Glove
10 atk Cape
10 atk Shoes
2 atk Critical ring
5 atk Dragon glasses
30atk Balanced fury
100 atk Ony apple
--total--
198 atk

Meaning the Lampion user will have a total weapon attack of 294, and the Mamba user will have a total weapon attack of 266,6

(296,6 - 324) / 324 = 8,46 % weapon attack difference

Conclusion
Once adventurer rings will be released a Neo black mamba will dethrone a reverse Lampion as the engame highest dps weapon.
As your weapon attack will increase, the gap between the Mamba and the Lampion will only decrease as both the Luk:Atk ratio changes in favor of the Mamba, aswell as the relative total attack gap between the Mamba user and the Lampion user will get smaller

The only things i failed to include in my damage formula is:
-Is it really impossible to use scrolls on a durability item?, ive been told that you CAN use scrolls even though nexon sais on their site you CANT.
-I have been told Thorns will not affect nightlords and therefor it is not applied in this formula
-Durability items can be upgraded with durability stones which do not require a slot. you could break your weapon though
-The moment it becomes easier for 25 base dex nightlords to hit the 125 dex cap without losing luk the mamba will lose a little weapon attack to the Lampion
-If you are able to get weapon attack equips better then the above stated equips the Mamba will even make your dps output greater

for issue 1. and 2. i will change the calculations once I found out how things really are

I would like to stress that the stats such as Luk and Dex or levels of the players (meaning higher luk) dont need to be applied in this calculation. for starters both claw users could upgrade their dex and luk at the same paste as the other. also the dps difference would be the same if both claw users had 1 total luk. the only stats that matter are the difference between required Luk and Dex which i did apply into the formula in favor of the Lampion.

Opinions please ;)

[Stereo]

Has anyone even a) found a Neo weapon, b) used 50%s on it? I thought only durability tablets could be used on them, which only add 2 atk, but I haven't actually seen one ingame or any durability weapons scrolled at all.

[KatanaKiwi]

This durability weapon drops from the lvl 90 Nibelung boss in Neo city (year 2503) which has unlimited spawn and which is extremely easy to kill.
Its a very hard drop, but according to the monsterbook data it drops, and i have allready found some other items nibelung is said to drop according to the monster book data. im pretty sure its a hard drop, but it surely drops.

The reason nobody hunts them is because most people dont know Nibelung drops the lvl 85 durability weapons, and because most people dont really care for lvl 85 claws when they are blindly in love with their Lampion

[Stereo]

And the drop rate really is bad... I killed a few dozen on my Paladin and didn't see anything except Elixirs and Power Elixirs. They take me about 2 minutes each (1 minute 20 to get to the map, about 40 seconds to kill since it has about 700k hp and light-weak) and the elixirs are pretty profitable, I guess it's just a matter of putting in the time. And I need to do the Neo Tokyo quests on my NL still, or else I'll have to Karma whatever I get.

The Dragon PQ rewards should give out a claw, but the boxes are broken. When that happens it'll be durability 25000, 48 w.atk @ 145 dex req, and 20% damage bonus to certain mob types, which is likely to make it superior to the Neo Mamba.

[KatanaKiwi]

okay but that only works in favor of the critical nightlord. the reason for this topic was not to praise the neo mamba, it was for comparing "critical type" nightlords to "high dex" nightlords. i could aswell have used a timeless lampion if i was to use unobtainable weapons.

also about the droprate, i have killed around 50 nibelung on 2x drop and i found 1 equipment, a gigantic sledge. i can immagine the neo equips being even more rare, so maybe thats why we havnt seen one yet.. either way ill be trying my luck for a few weeks to get the neo polearm, and if i find a durabiliy weapon ill report here

edit: im actually quite sure the other claw from the dragon pq will be stronger then the mamba, its 5% chance for 20% dmg, which is worse then 10% for 10%, and the 8 atk difference isnt such a big deal, but ill calculate this later. on top of that this claw you speak of isnt in our data yet according to Fiels extraction, and on top of that the extraction sais the required job is Shadower. which is strange and most likely was fixed in tespia, but im not sure about this

[Khoi]

If I had to be honest, NLs are one of the classes in the game that are more dependent on their critical-rate more than their attack. I'm sure a lot of people here will disagree, or even say that attack can = critical-rate, but truth is, a critical can make a huge difference, twice your normal damage output (as in, without any criticals at all). I've been playing a Night Lord ever since 4th job came out, and I've always observed the percentage for certain skills before putting my points in them, since I like to think of success rate with attacks when I play. :x I'd prefer higher success and damage with my Crits over some points in attack, but that's just me. Even 1 more att to a 17 att SCG can cost a couple hundred millions in Scania...

Personally, this shift might change it up a bit, because I've been seeing a lot of DEXless and Low-DEX Sauna'd (haha) NLs. Things hasn't changed at all in terms of how a NL-player tries to add more to their damage. The typical stats-boosting gear and trying to be DEXless, right? I admit. Been there, done that. The new claw is interesting, but I haven't really played my NL in about almost 3-4 months now. Meh. I lost interest in this game.

So to the next generation of Night Lords out there, have fun with your class and character! Think outside the box a bit. Higher critical rate, or more damage? Pick your weapon.

[Stereo]

on top of that this claw you speak of isnt in our data yet according to Fiels extraction, and on top of that the extraction sais the required job is Shadower. which is strange and most likely was fixed in tespia,

In 0.85 they partially added them, then in 0.86 they fixed it. Like you say, crit-wise the Neo Mamba is better, but if the 20% damage boost affects any bosses (type Devil, but I can't find the monster type list atm) then that's a big mark in favour of the Crypto once Nexon gets the Dragon PQ rewards working.

[Alloy]

Bad news, scrolls won't work on durability items. Only tablets. Therefore... That 45 extra attack becomes... 18.

EDIT: Ok, I think I should have read the whole thread first, I guess.

[singularity]

The idea/concept is good, but your calculations left much to be desired.

First of all, you didn't calculate the stats of the perfect claws correctly:

A Night Lords new best friend?

Claw stats:
Perfect Neo Black Mamba
Required DEX: 125
Weapon Attack: +40
DEX: +5
Durability: 20000
Fast(4)
7 Slots

Scrolls: 9x 5 atk 1 Dex 1 Luk (pink scroll)
Above average: 5 atk

Critical:
Probability - 10%
Damage - 10%

Perfect Reverse Lampion
Required DEX: 160
Weapon Attack: 54
LUK+8
Fast (5)
7 Slots

Scrolls: 9x 5 atk 1 Dex 1 Luk (pink scroll)
Level-up: 6 atk 6 Luk 3 Dex
Maker: 3 atk 5Luk 3 atk
Above average: 5 atk

If we take in accord the required dex difference between the weapons we find ourself comparing like this
Mamba 58 Stats, 95 Atk
Lampion 40 Stats, 126 AtkMax for Mamba is 90ATT ; 9LUK ==> 40 + 9*5 + 5 = 90
Max for Rev. Lampion is 116ATT ; 28LUK ==> 54 + 9*5 + 6 + (3+3) + 5 = 116

We can safely ignore DEX because Triple Throw formula is in the form of LUK*ATT*C, where C is a constant.


Critical dmg output
Neo Black Mamba
50% base crit - 200% dmg
10% neo black mamba - 10% dmg
10% critical ring - 10% dmg
15% sharp eyes - 40% dmg
--total--
85% critical - 260% dmg
15% normal - 100% dmg

0,85 x 2,6 = 221%
0,15 x 1,0 = 15%
total output 236% dmg

Reverse Lampion
50% base crit - 200% dmg
10% crit ring - 10% dmg
15% sharp eyes - 40% dmg
--total--
75% critical - 250% dmg
25% normal - 100% dmg

0,75 x 2,5 = 187,5%
0,25 x 1,0 = 25%
total output 212,5% dmg

(236 - 212,5) / 212,5 = 11,05% dmg increaseIn this section, I'm just going to analyze the damage from one star of TT:
(The other Triple Throw stars have no effect on our calculation of whether using a Mamba or using a Rev. Lampion is better. Same too for the Shadow Partner stars.)

% Damage Output
Neo Black Mamba
TT skill % = 150%
Critical Throw adds +100% dmg @ 50% probability
Sharp Eyes adds +140% dmg and +15% probability
Neo Black Mamba adds +10% dmg and +10% probability
Critical Ring adds +10% dmg and +10% probability
85% probability of 410% dmg
15% probability of 150% dmg

0.85 x 410% = 348.5%
0.15 x 150% = 22.5%
Total: 371% on avg.

Reverse Lampion
TT skill% = 150%
Critical Throw adds +100% dmg @ 50% probability
Sharp Eyes adds +140% dmg and +15% probability
Critical Ring adds +10% dmg and +10% probability75% probability of 400% dmg
25% probability of 150% dmg

0.75 x 400% = 300%
0.25 x 150% = 37.5%
Total: 337.5% on avg.


Critical versus Atk
As described above the total damage output (ignoring atk) would increase by 11,05% by switching to a Neo Mamba, meaning you would need to decrease your total weapon attack with less then 11,05% in order for the Mamba to have better dps output. For the sake of simplifying things I will convert the Dex requirement and Luk bonus from the 2 equips into weapon attack, however I will do this at a rate that is beneficial for the Lampion. Because Dps matters the most at bosses I will also add an Onyx apple into the mix, since most nightlords dont care about which weapon wins during training, they are nightlords for the sake of bossing.

Lets assume 1 Dex = 1 Luk = 0,2 W.atk
This means 5 Luk equals 1 W.atk, under the influence of an onyx apple a Strong nightlord can hit 4:1, a godly nightlord can touch 3:1

the 18 stats advantage for the Mamba would become 3,6 atk
Mamba 95 + 3,6 Atk -> 98,6
Lampion 126 Atk

For the other equips I will use Great but not overpowered equips. Stats such as luk and dex wont matter as they will be the same for both nightlords, and we allready converted the stat differences into weapon attack, thus they wont affect our calculation. true that this wont give us a 100% accurate outcome, however the difference is miniscule, and will always favor the Lampion.

10 atk belt
12 atk Mon
19 atk Glove
10 atk Cape
10 atk Shoes
2 atk Critical ring
5 atk Dragon glasses
30atk Balanced fury
100 atk Ony apple
--total--
198 atk

Meaning the Lampion user will have a total weapon attack of 294, and the Mamba user will have a total weapon attack of 266,6

(296,6 - 324) / 324 = 8,46 % weapon attack differenceThis section should be more like:

Putting the two together: (Claw ATT and % Damage)


Assume that one must raise base DEX to go from equipping a Mamba to a Lampion (or that one can swap DEX gear for an equal amount of LUK gear and vice-versa)
=> Difference in DEX requirement between Lampion and Mamba is 35DEX => assume that Lampion user must use +DEX from Maple Warrior to wear claw (so as not to waste MW's stat boost)
Rev. Lampion has a +19LUK bonus compared against Neo Black Mamba.

=> Overall LUK differential = +16LUK for using Neo Black Mamba

Let x = total LUK of Neo Black Mamba user
Let y = total ATT of Neo Black Mamba user

Then we can infer LUK and ATT of the Mamba and Rev. Lampion users:
Mamba user's LUK = x
Mamba user's ATT = y

Rev. Lamp. user's LUK = x - 16
Rev. Lamp. user's ATT = y + 26
So the TT formula for the two claws gives:


Mamba: 3.71*C*x*y
Rev. Lamp.: 3.375*C*(x-16)*(y+26)

Then equating the two and solving for y, we get (see spoiler for calculation):
3.71*C*x*y = 3.375*C*(x-16)*(y+26)

C is non-zero, so:
x*y = (3.375/3.71)*(x-16)*(y+26)
Let k = 3.375/3.71:
x*y = k* (x*y - 16y + 26x - 16*26) // FOIL
x*y = (k)x*y - (16k)y + (26k)x - 16*26*k // Mult. through by k.
(16k)y - (26k)x = (k-1)x*y - 16*26*k // Collect x*y term and collect x,y terms.
Let t = (16k)y - (26k)x
=> y can also be expressed in terms of x and t:
(16k)y = t + (26k)x
y = (1/16k) * (t + 26*k*x)
Substitute for t and y:
t = (k-1)*x * (1/16k)*(t + 26*k*x) - 16*26*k
16*k*t = x*(k-1)*(t + 26*k*x) - 26*256*k^2 // Mult. through by 16*k.
16*k*t = k*x*t - x*t + 26*(k*x)^2 - 26*k*x^2 - 26*256*k^2 // FOIL
t (16*k - k*x + x) = 26*(k*x)^2 - 26*k*x^2 - 26*256*k^2 // Collect t term.
t = [ 26*(k*x)^2 - 26*k*x^2 - 26*256*k^2 ] / (16*k - k*x + x) // Separate t.
Now, put back what we defined as t:
(16k)y - (26k)x = [ 26*(k*x)^2 - 26*k*x^2 - 26*256*k^2 ] / (16*k - k*x + x)
(16k)y = (26k)x + [ 26*(k*x)^2 - 26*k*x^2 - 26*256*k^2 ] / (16*k - k*x + x) // Add (26k)x.

So y = (26k/16k)x + [ 26*(k*x)^2 - 26*k*x^2 - 26*256*k^2 ] / [(16k)*(16*k - k*x + x)] // Separate y.
y = (26k/16k)x + (26k)[ k*(x^2) - x^2 - 256*k ] / [(16k)*(16*k - k*x + x)] // Factor out (26k) in numerator.
y = (26/16)x + (26/16)* [k(x^2) - x^2 - 256*k] / (16*k - k*x + x) // Cancellation of k's because k is non-zero.

y = (26/16)x + (26/16)* [k(x^2) - x^2 - 256*k] / (16*k - k*x + x)

where k = 3.375/3.71, x = Total LUK wearing Mamba, y = Total ATT wearing Mamba
So this tells us that for a given amount of LUK, if total ATT is greater than the output of the equation above; then a character would do more damage with a perfect Neo Black Mamba than with a perfect Reverse Lampion. (Formula is for LUK and ATT while wearing the Mamba.)

Of course, everyone wants concrete values and to see how it scales up/down, so here is the corresponding table of LUK and ATT values.

LUK w/ Mamba|ATT w/ Mamba Greater Than|= LUK w/Lampion|= ATT w/ Lamp Greater Than
1200|227.8421053|1184|253.8421053
1175|227.2041329|1159|253.2041329
1150 |226.5418327|1134|252.5418327
1125 |225.8537859 |1109 |251.8537859
1100 |225.1384615 |1084 |251.1384615
1075 |224.3942046 |1059 |250.3942046
1050 |223.6192237 |1034 |249.6192237
1025 |222.811576 |1009 |248.811576
1000 |221.9691517 |984 |247.9691517
975 |221.0896552 |959 |247.0896552
950 |220.1705843 |934 |246.1705843
925 |219.2092065 |909 |245.2092065
900 |218.2025316 |884 |244.2025316
875 |217.1472812 |859 |243.1472812
850 |216.0398524 |834 |242.0398524
825 |214.876277 |809 |240.876277
800 |213.6521739 |784 |239.6521739
775 |212.3626943 | 759 |238.3626943
750 |211.002457 |734 |237.002457
725 |209.5654737 |709 | 235.5654737
700 |208.0450607 |684 |234.0450607
675 |206.4337349 |659 |232.4337349
650 |204.7230911 |634 |230.7230911
625 |202.9036545 |609 |228.9036545
600 |200.9647059 |584 |226.9647059
575 |198.8940699 |559 |224.8940699
550 |196.6778594 |534 |222.6778594
525 |194.3001631 |509 |220.3001631
500 |191.7426637 |484 |217.7426637
475 |188.9841642 |459 |214.9841642
450 |186 |434 |212
425 |182.7612985 |409 |208.7612985
400 |179.2340426 |384 |205.2340426
375 |175.3778706 |359 |201.3778706
350 |171.1445255 | 334 |197.1445255
325 |166.475825 |309 |192.475825
300 |161.3009709| 284 | 187.3009709


Since Onyx Apples give +100 attack, the ATT needed is easily surpassable. And it's even easily surpassable if you have a non-perfect Mamba/non-perfect items.

[KatanaKiwi]

-the reason im not ignoring the Dex stat on the equips is because via ability resets this dex can be changed into LUK, for which 1 dex would mean 1 luk. the only condition for this is not reaching the required dex for a lampion with 25base dex and without any dex equips that can be changed into luk. i dont think anyone (except for maybe 52stat htp users) hit this cap.

-and yea you are right about the 150% tripple throw part, by bad