How thorns (dual blader) works

[Jellyflower]

It's still incomplete, and it still doesn't answer the question how sharp eyes will come into play. I believe they are two separate buffs entirely. Here's the breakdown of thorns bonuses alone.

Dual bladers:
35% chance of dealing 250% more damage. (additive)

Mages (excluding Evans)
35% chance of doing 2.24x the damage. This was tested with the damage cap at 199,999 so I believe it's actually 2.5x seeing other videos.

Archers, night lords:
Effect does not apply

Non-inherit crit classes (heroes, paladins, dark knights, corsairs, shadowers)
35% chance of dealing 125% more damage. (additive)

Buccaneers:
Thorns effect will work when attacking stunned enemies

Arans:
Thorns effect works when gaining combos

Evans:
Thorns effect applies (someone commented it's 35% on top of passive and +125% on crit damage, so for max magical crit, you do 275% at 65% chance for Evans)

I'm assuming for buccs and arans, the formula is the same as non-crit inherit classes but under those listed conditions only. (35% more chance on doing 125% bonus damage)

Credits to Spadow on translating the last bits. Still no information on whether sharp eye stacks or not, but it doesn't look like it. Adventurer rings work by just adding the effect at the end of all buffs for easy calculation. Modify % chance and damage by appropriate bonuses, Not sure if it'll do 10% or 110% for non-crit classes though, only know it adds 10% to after SE or thorns.


http://www.insoya.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=simple_info&divpage=2&no=7750

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.insoya.com%2Fbbs%2Fzboard.php%3 Fid%3Dsimple_info%26divpage%3D2%26no%3D7750

[Bribery]

I wonder how Thorns will stack with the Critical Rings, any ideas on that?

Corsairs will love this skill too. I should make a Dual Blader just for a Thorns mule. :f2:


EDIT: Reading the translated comments, it seems Thorns will stack with Evan's Crit, making it (30% + 35%) success and (150% + 125%) damage. I can't tell if the poster was stating that as a fact or simply asking a question though.

It also seems that the Adventurer Rings do stack with Thorns too, making it (35% + ring success). Again, that's from the translated comments so I can't tell whether it's accurate or not.

[Dusk]

This game is so broken now I don't know how people still play it.

[MagicsBISH]

This game is so broken now I don't know how people still play it.

I like this game now really.

GL on me getting to 16x with SE, MW, ECHO, HB, HASTE, THORNS, BLESS, 4 X all Time and some other crap Buffs hahahaa

[Lozmaster]

Non-inherit crit classes (heroes, paladins, dark knights, corsairs, shadowers)
35% chance of dealing 125% more damage. (additive)

Are you seriously telling me they had the common sense to not make it boost archers and nightlords but then did shit all with corsairs... lolkmstroll

[Tikey]

The way Thorns distributes damage is freaking weird. >_>

[Takebacker]

F'ucking ridiculous.

I wonder if it would work on buccs on a boss. 45% chance of crit really isn't that bad, considering buccs have wanted passive crit for AGES.

[Bomber]

Poor NLs & BMs.

[Phoenix]

I'm glad they had the foresight to not let it inflate NL/BM crits.

Sairs don't have inherent crit, so I don;t see much of a problem there. Their base % attack is already up there. Drk's get the lasrgest boost out of this I assume if it does indeed stack with SE.

[Corn]

HUh, Evans can do....decent damage, if Sharp Eyes can stack with Critical + Thorns.

I'm actually kind of glad with this. Easier time with Pink Bean. Corsairs are pineappled up though.

[Takebacker]

I have a strong feeling that evans will out damage buccs with thorns. 2.75x damage when critted is pretty much hitting the damage cap for a strong evan, along with the fact that their crit rate can be 75% of the time...

[Link]

I translated the Korean into Japanese and it LOOKS like it says that Thorns only affects Vipers if they attacked a stunned enemy. I'm not sure if that's right, though.

It looks like it says the same thing for Arans and Evan.

Evans get the thorn affect all of the time, since they have a passive critical, and Arans can only get Thorn's effect when they have their combo up.

[Takebacker]

I translated the Korean into Japanese and it LOOKS like it says that Thorns only affects Vipers if they attacked a stunned enemy. I'm not sure if that's right, though.

I don't think that makes sense. Sure it doesn't say unstunned?

[Link]

In Japanese it says, "スターンがかかった敵、攻撃しても (insert random Korean word that's not translatable)されています." Which means, "When a stunned enemy is attacked, (insert Korean word) happens."

[TugboatWilly]

sure makes sense to give it to heroes/corsairs, nexon. :f7:

[Mazz]

I f2'd irl. :f2:

[KaidaTan]

Non-inherit crit classes (heroes, paladins, dark knights, corsairs, shadowers)
35% chance of dealing 125% more damage. (additive)
What makes you think it's 125% instead of the full 250%?

[Takebacker]

What makes you think it's 125% instead of the full 250%?

It was already pretty well known that the effect is less for party members. It kinda just makes sense if they just decided to half the damage given.

[AngryFungus]

All I can say is what the f'uck?

They have a patch to balance the classes, then they go and do this? How is this skill fair at all?

[Worthyness]

lol yay Thorns helps Buccaneer's bossing damage so much now...

stupid stun mastery F3

[Bribery]

Do Arans always get the Thorns effect or is it only if they're below a certain combo? From the looks of it, Thorns only works if your inherit critical success is less than 35%. That's probably why it affects Evans but not NLs/Archers. Maybe for Buccs it applies only if the enemy isn't stunned.

Also, Thorns has suddenly re-sparked my interest in Evans. :f3:

[KaidaTan]

It was already pretty well known that the effect is less for party members. It kinda just makes sense if they just decided to half the damage given.
That doesn't explain the video of a Bishop tripling his damage with it. Thorns wasn't even maxed in that video.

[Bribery]

That doesn't explain the video of a Bishop tripling his damage with it. Thorns wasn't even maxed in that video.

It says Mages get a 2.24x multiplier (it's probably 2.5x since their tests hit the damage cap). Non-mages get 125%.

[Takebacker]

It says Mages get a 2.24x multiplier (it's probably 2.5x since their tests hit the damage cap). Non-mages get 125%.

Non mages includes evans or no? *Dumb question*

[Bribery]

Non mages includes evans or no? *Dumb question*

Well, I meant to exclude Evans since they apparently get 125% added onto their regular critical, according to the comments on Insoya. So Evans would get 65% chance for 275% damage.

[Kalovale]

The farther away from damage cap we are, the more potential we have? Even if SE and Thorn works independently, that'd be great news enough for me.

Is there any word on how Adventurer Ring works with SE, and perhaps Thorn?

[Shidoshi]

I don't get how can Nexon korea not understand how critical works and how this will tilt the balance between classes in strange ways.

[Sinnuendo]

I think it was meant to help classes that don't have natural crit, they just implemented it without taking certain things into consideration (Corsairs mostly).

[AngryFungus]

I think it was meant to help classes that don't have natural crit, they just implemented it without taking certain things into consideration (Corsairs mostly).

I'm still struggling to understand why they need "help" when there was a bloody balance patch.

[Takebacker]

This would have been a million times better if it wasn't a party skill, lol.

[Link]

This would have been a million times better if it wasn't a party skill, lol.

Especially since us Vipers are shafted again at bosses. ;X


*watches as Vipers become the #1 lowest spot on the Single Target DPS chart and everyone else becomes 5x as powerful*


Yep. Nexon hates Vipers.

[Tamillan]

Thorns doesn't affect NL??? O_O. Aren't heros and corsairs strong enough? That just makes everything unbalanced lol? Im sure thorns works on NL/BM. TEST IT.

[RIPGobies]

What's there to test? It's on the official website published by the game masters that it does not work on Archers and Night Lord. This makes me want to leech my Dragon Knight more. They're going to be so freaking strong.

[Kalovale]

What's there to test? It's on the official website published by the game masters that it does not work on Archers and Night Lord. This makes me want to leech my Dragon Knight more. They're going to be so freaking strong.

Ew @ leeching.

Jokes aside, is there any particular reason as to why Drks would be better and not warriors as a whole? Aside from the fact that they hit the lowest numbers.

[KaidaTan]

Ew @ leeching.

Jokes aside, is there any particular reason as to why Drks would be better and not warriors as a whole? Aside from the fact that they hit the lowest numbers.
Since Berserk doubles damage (including crits), Crusher effectively hits 6 times per use. Even though Brandish and Blast are faster, they hit only 2 and 1 times respectively. It'll help all the warriors, but it'll help DrKs the most. And as a sidenote, people really overestimate Heroes. They're not really that great.

And yeah, this'll make Corsairs crazy strong. But that doesn't really matter at all since the Dual Blader will still be much stronger. Seriously, they're broken.

[ZottenKerel]

Sure people will be stronger with it at bosses, but you still have to train without it. Dual bladers aren't gonna party with warriors at skeles or something.

[MagicsBISH]

So, Thorns and SE Stack! Thats good. Also Blader can wear MoN's hopefully, since they are Adventurers :).

Hmm nice to a See a Blader with a 135+ ATT Dagger, MW30, Cider, SE, Echo, MoN, Wep ATT Face, Wep att Glasses, Wep Adventurer Ring, Lilin Ring and of course the Normal Gear. :-)

[Kalovale]

Since Berserk doubles damage (including crits), Crusher effectively hits 6 times per use. Even though Brandish and Blast are faster, they hit only 2 and 1 times respectively. It'll help all the warriors, but it'll help DrKs the most. And as a sidenote, people really overestimate Heroes. They're not really that great.

And yeah, this'll make Corsairs crazy strong. But that doesn't really matter at all since the Dual Blader will still be much stronger. Seriously, they're broken.

Oh my bad, I assume the crit multiplier is applied before Zerk's 200%, so our benefits should be doubled:
(x + 1.25) * 2 = Thorn-crit damage = 2x + 2.5
(y + 1.25) = y +1.25

Is this correct?

Another question, is Drk's damage with Thorns supposed to be (170% + 125%) * 2 or (100% + 125%) * 1.7 * 2. According to Russt's order of operation, skill modifiers get applied before crit bonuses.

[Alloy]

Oh, so thorns only affects people without a base critical? Sounds fair.

I just hope that if we NLs get to fall below the line of DPS classes because of that stuff, we at least get a little boost on training to even it out. Ironing should affect everyone, right? And don't tell me SE make us overpowered. We are average without it, and now things even it out more with thorns.

[Tamillan]

Here is some math assuming thorns doesn't work on NLs/BMs and Critical Ring stacks with se and thorns. Also SE NOT STACKING WITH THORNS.

This is just skill % but you have to take Range * Skill % * Speed = DPS

Hero with se no ring=1068% we all know that
Hero with thorns + ring= (260+125+10)*0.45 + (260*0.55)=320.75%
320.75*2*1.9=1218%

For battleship:
Corsair with se no ring=1924%
Corsair with thorns+ring= (380+125+10)*0.45 + (380*0.55)=440.75%
440.75*4*1.2=2115%

Rapid Fire:
Corsair with se no ring=265% <--new balance patch thing.
Corsair with thorns+ring= (200+125+10)*0.45 + (200*0.55)=260.75%
260*1.2=312%
Now that is a good boost. ACTUALLY CRAZY WOW.....................F5
K so on battleship its not a big boost but on rapid fire its a crazy boost. WOW AMAZING. Dam..........Their dmg will be close to NLs very close...........tats not good lol.

Night Lords with se no ring=1377% we all know that.
Night Lords with se + ring= (150+100+140+10)*0.75 + (0.55*150)=337.5%
337.5*3*1.5=1518%
see even without thorns NL still get a good boost. But Heros and Corsairs get a bigger boost with thorns and ring together. But Rapid Fire is just mad mad strong now really..........

I am too lazy to show my math for the below ones but im sure you guys can figure it out. NOT HARD LOL.

Bowmasters with se no ring= 232%
BM with se + ring = 262%
That is a good boost but not as much as rapid fire.

Dark Knights with se no ring=1146%
DK with thorns+ring=1384%
Wow this is a pretty good too. NOT AS GOOD AS RAPID FIRE. F5

I am just angry that Corsairs get such huge boost. Even if they aren't on ship 100% of the time. Their dmg will still be almost as high as NL.

Here is an example.
NL range=17100
Corsair range=14800
Both of these ranges are calculated using similar funded equips. NL obviously have higher range b/c of TT 5 * multiplier instead of 3.6 for Corsairs.
NL DPS with se and no ring=17100*0.75*13.77*100/60=294k
NL DPS with se + ring= 17100*0.75*15.18*100/60=324k
Rapid Fire DPS with se and no ring= 14800*0.77*2.65*500/60=251k
Rapid Fire DPS with se + ring= 14800*0.77*3.12*500/60=296k

NL=324k
RF=296k
The difference is NOTHING.
Corsairs are mad mad strong now..............

What I want to know is DOES CRITICAL RING STACK WITH THORNS???? Cause if it does then im quitting maybe lol. Another thing is DOES SE STACK WITH THORNS????? I know SE STACKS WITH RING MOST LIKELY!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a NL, there is nothing great now. ALL bosses corsairs going to do more dmg than NLs now if this is all true. Good job nexon. Ah well. :(

[KaidaTan]

Here is some math assuming thorns doesn't work on NLs/BMs and Critical Ring stacks with se and thorns. Also SE NOT STACKING WITH THORNS.

This is just skill % but you have to take Range * Skill % * Speed = DPS

Hero with se no ring=1068% we all know that
Hero with thorns + ring= (260+125+10)*0.45 + (260*0.55)=320.75%
320.75*2*1.9=1218%
You're doing it wrong. Combo doesn't multiply crits, so it'd be more like this...

Hero with SE = 1030%
Hero with Thorns + Ring = (260*1.9+125+10)*0.45 + (260*1.9)*0.55 = 555%
555%*2 = 1110%

All the rest of 'em are correct though.


Here is an example.
NL range=17100
Corsair range=14800
Both of these ranges are calculated using similar funded equips. NL obviously have higher range b/c of TT 5 * multiplier instead of 3.6 for Corsairs.
NL DPS with se and no ring=17100*0.75*13.77*100/60=294k
NL DPS with se + ring= 17100*0.75*15.18*100/60=324k
Rapid Fire DPS with se and no ring= 14800*0.77*2.65*500/60=251k
Rapid Fire DPS with se + ring= 14800*0.77*3.12*500/60=296k

NL=324k
RF=296k
The difference is NOTHING.
Corsairs are mad mad strong now..............
I'm going to assume those ranges are max ranges rather than average. When I matched up each class with their max ranges, I got (more or less) the same numbers you got. However, at the stats that matched NLs with your max range for NLs, my Corsair was weaker than your Corsair. And when I matched up the Corsairs, your NL was stronger than mine. I'm not sure exactly how our imaginary shared gear differs, but I'm willing to bet the difference between their prospective ranges would be bigger than that.


What I want to know is DOES CRITICAL RING STACK WITH THORNS???? Cause if it does then im quitting maybe lol. Another thing is DOES SE STACK WITH THORNS????? I know SE STACKS WITH RING MOST LIKELY!!!!!!!!!!!!

As a NL, there is nothing great now. ALL bosses corsairs going to do more dmg than NLs now if this is all true. Good job nexon. Ah well. :(
Critical ring stacks with everything. SE probably stacks with Thorns. And Corsairs don't really matter anymore. Aran and especially Dual Bladers will be out-damaging everyone else by a long shot anyway.

[Tamillan]

You're doing it wrong. Combo doesn't multiply crits, so it'd be more like this...

Hero with SE = 1030%
Hero with Thorns + Ring = (260*1.9+125+10)*0.45 + (260*1.9)*0.55 = 555%
555%*2 = 1110%

All the rest of 'em are correct though.


I'm going to assume those ranges are max ranges rather than average. When I matched up each class with their max ranges, I got (more or less) the same numbers you got. However, at the stats that matched NLs with your max range for NLs, my Corsair was weaker than your Corsair. And when I matched up the Corsairs, your NL was stronger than mine. I'm not sure exactly how our imaginary shared gear differs, but I'm willing to bet the difference between their prospective ranges would be bigger than that.


Critical ring stacks with everything. SE probably stacks with Thorns. And Corsairs don't really matter anymore. Aran and especially Dual Bladers will be out-damaging everyone else by a long shot anyway.

For hero the way i did was right. It is multiplied in the end. Even Dusk's DPS excel spreadsheet has it the same way i do. Multipliers like combo, berzerk, shadow partner, bullseye, etc all multiply at the end.

NL range is max range but then i multiplied it by 0.75 to make it average range. For Corsair i multiplied by 0.77 for them since they have more mastery. I used the spreadsheets from this forum somewhere in corsair page where there is an accurate formulad spreadsheet where you plug in the equips stats and you get the range. So its all accurate and same equips for NLs. Only the weapons are different and some others instead of DEX/STR its LUK for NL, etc etc. So yeah the ranges are fine. There might be a small difference but its negligeable.

There is no way SE and Thorns will stack b/c thats just messed up. You can test it out in KMST, im sure it wont stack. Critical rings im not sure if they stack with thorns, i hope not, but even if they do its not so bad except for Corsairs the dmg is going to be massive.

[KaidaTan]

For hero the way i did was right. It is multiplied in the end. Even Dusk's DPS excel spreadsheet has it the same way i do. Multipliers like combo, berzerk, shadow partner, bullseye, etc all multiply at the end.
No, you're wrong and Dusk's calculator is wrong. Aside from the testing that was just done (http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=855&p=413903&viewfull=1#post413903) in the Formula Compilation thread, I've tested this myself. And I've adjusted my own version of Dusk's calculator to match it. All the other things you mentioned *do* multiply at the end, Combo is just an exception.


NL range is max range but then i multiplied it by 0.75 to make it average range. For Corsair i multiplied by 0.77 for them since they have more mastery. I used the spreadsheets from this forum somewhere in corsair page where there is an accurate formulad spreadsheet where you plug in the equips stats and you get the range. So its all accurate and same equips for NLs. Only the weapons are different and some others instead of DEX/STR its LUK for NL, etc etc. So yeah the ranges are fine. There might be a small difference but its negligeable.
Sounds kind of messy. I used my version of Dusk's calc so I know they used the same stuff, I just find it odd that our ranges are so different.


There is no way SE and Thorns will stack b/c thats just messed up. You can test it out in KMST, im sure it wont stack.
You're just speculating -- you don't know that for sure. And being that crit rings are even coming out, it's pretty clear the current designers have no idea how crit affects classes and class balance, so I certainly wouldn't put it past them. I'm expecting Thorns to take up the innate crit slot (if it's not already filled), and SE to stack with it like how it stacks with innate crit.

[Alloy]

This reminds me... Is it possible that NLs get a boost in critical damage but not on chance? Like, rising from 200 to 250, because 250 is higher, but remaining with the 50% because it's higher. Considering it as a 50% damage increase only.


I'm expecting Thorns to take up the innate crit slot (if it's not already filled), and SE to stack with it like how it stacks with innate crit.

I'm asuming that one for now, too.

[Tamillan]

No, you're wrong and Dusk's calculator is wrong. Aside from the testing that was just done (http://www.southperry.net/showthread.php?t=855&p=413903&viewfull=1#post413903) in the Formula Compilation thread, I've tested this myself. And I've adjusted my own version of Dusk's calculator to match it. All the other things you mentioned *do* multiply at the end, Combo is just an exception.


Sounds kind of messy. I used my version of Dusk's calc so I know they used the same stuff, I just find it odd that our ranges are so different.


You're just speculating -- you don't know that for sure. And being that crit rings are even coming out, it's pretty clear the current designers have no idea how crit affects classes and class balance, so I certainly wouldn't put it past them. I'm expecting Thorns to take up the innate crit slot (if it's not already filled), and SE to stack with it like how it stacks with innate crit.

Well i got that info of combo stuff off dusk so yeah anyways. even if it is your way. the difference is so small that its negligeable.

Well the spreadsheet i used was the NL dmg calculator in sw and corsair spreadsheet from either sw and sp cant remember but they are accurate.

Also thorns will not stack se, some guy from KMST tested it and he put in youtube and said thorns doesnt seem to increase dmg. If SE stacks with thorns? That would make other classes far too powerful and it wont make sense. Anyways rather than worrying it now. Lets just wait and see. In end you will see that thorns does not stack with se. I believe in my own opinion and it won't change unless someone really shows that it does stack.

[Alilatias]

So I asked Spadow over at his blog about this, particularly the Aran, Evan, and Viper/Buccaneer part. Here's a more accurate translation:

Thorns Effect

Dual Blade
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, Skill damage 250%
ex) Upper Stab’s damage without crit is 245%, but with crit it is 495%

Magician
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, damage multiplied by 2.24
ex) Genesis’s damage without crit is 99999, but with crit you can make it to 199999

Thorns Effect will not work on classes who have a critical skill (Night Lord and Archer)

Thorns Effect will work on classes who don’t have a critical skill (Captain, Shadower, Hero, Paladin and Dark Knight)
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, Skill damage 125%

Viper
- Thorns Effect will only work when you attack stunned enemies

Aran
- Thorns Effect will only work when you’re gaining combos

Evan
- Can be affected by Thorns Effect

I'm going to assume that what they mean by "Aran's Thorns Effect will only work when you're gaining combos" is that Thorns will only be in effect if Combo Critical's effect is lower than Thorns' effect.

[KaidaTan]

Also thorns will not stack se, some guy from KMST tested it and he put in youtube and said thorns doesnt seem to increase dmg. If SE stacks with thorns? That would make other classes far too powerful and it wont make sense. Anyways rather than worrying it now. Lets just wait and see. In end you will see that thorns does not stack with se. I believe in my own opinion and it won't change unless someone really shows that it does stack.
Mind linking to that video?

[Tamillan]

So I asked Spadow over at his blog about this, particularly the Aran, Evan, and Viper/Buccaneer part. Here's a more accurate translation:

Thorns Effect

Dual Blade
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, Skill damage 250%
ex) Upper Stab’s damage without crit is 245%, but with crit it is 495%

Magician
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, damage multiplied by 2.24
ex) Genesis’s damage without crit is 99999, but with crit you can make it to 199999

Thorns Effect will not work on classes who have a critical skill (Night Lord and Archer)

Thorns Effect will work on classes who don’t have a critical skill (Captain, Shadower, Hero, Paladin and Dark Knight)
-35% chance of performing a critical attack, Skill damage 125%

Viper
- Thorns Effect will only work when you attack stunned enemies

Aran
- Thorns Effect will only work when you’re gaining combos

Evan
- Can be affected by Thorns Effect

I'm going to assume that what they mean by "Aran's Thorns Effect will only work when you're gaining combos" is that Thorns will only be in effect if Combo Critical's effect is lower than Thorns' effect.

Perfect thats makes sense. Can you ask him if critical ring works with thorns? and also does SE stack with THORNS?

[JoeTang]

Mind linking to that video?

Unless they've changed it since it was released on the live server, Thorns did stack with SE and Critical Rings in KMST.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuNlf3TnIAs

[Link]

Viper
- Thorns Effect will only work when you attack stunned enemies




So, I was right. Vipers got the short end of the stick again. There won't ever be love for us Vipers from Nexon </3

[Tamillan]

Unless they've changed it since it was released on the live server, Thorns did stack with SE and Critical Rings in KMST.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuNlf3TnIAs

Hmm the person who uploaded the video said it doenst seem that se stacks with thorns b/c his dmg didn't increase from the ToT mobs to skele mobs.

Hero Brandish goes up to 1615% thats higher than a NL. Range and speed is same almost. So hero will do same dmg as NL. Thats rubbish.... Corsairs will have 2424% on battleship cannon and 438% RF. This means RF alone will do much higher dmg than NL's TT. THink about it. you think thats going to happen. No obviously. SE and THORNS dont stack. Well we need someone from KMST to test this out.

[JoeTang]

Hmm the person who uploaded the video said it doenst seem that se stacks with thorns b/c his dmg didn't increase from the ToT mobs to skele mobs.

What video?


Hero Brandish goes up to 1615%

You're doing it wrong.

Corsairs will have 2424% on battleship cannon



and 438% RF.

YES BECAUSE THORNS HAS 100% ACTIVATION RATE.


No obviously. SE and THORNS dont stack.

Have you seen the video I posted or did you quote it for sh'its and giggles?

[Tamillan]

What video?



You're doing it wrong.


YES BECAUSE THORNS HAS 100% ACTIVATION RATE.

Have you seen the video I posted or did you quote it for sh'its and giggles?

What do you mean what video? the video that you just linked.....

And also for brandish it is 1615%.
260+125+140+10=535%
535*0.6+260*0.4=425%
425*2*1.9=1615%
O_O its correct lol......

[JoeTang]

Advanced Combo is added before Criticals, and learn to probability.

[KaidaTan]

What do you mean what video? the video that you just linked.....

And also for brandish it is 1615%.
260+125+140+10=535%
535*0.6+260*0.4=425%
425*2*1.9=1615%
O_O its correct lol......
Dude, I *just* told you you were wrong and provided established research in the Formulae thread, and you go and make the same mistake again?

And Brandish isn't quite as fast as TT. It's 690ms or 630ms depending on if they have SI.

[Tamillan]

Advanced Combo is added before Criticals, and learn to probability.

Nah you are that other dude are making stuff up. Everyone knows its 1.9 times the final thing not before...where is your source lol?

Meh it doenst matter. the skill % isnt going to change much either way. Still overpowered...f5

[KaidaTan]

Nah you are that other dude are making stuff up. Everyone knows its 1.9 times the final thing not before...where is your source lol?
What's it like under that rock?

[Tamillan]

Anyways forget the combo stuff. What i really want know is about thorns and se stacking and rings working with thorns. Very important factors that can change the game lol.

If you really are correct about combo stuff. here is the %.
Hero with se and no ring=1030%
Hero with thorns + ring=1109%
Hero with thorns+se+ring (if they do stack all of them)=1318%

Still over powered f5.

[KaidaTan]

Anyways forget the combo stuff. What i really want know is about thorns and se stacking and rings working with thorns. Very important factors that can change the game lol.

If you really are correct about combo stuff. here is the %.
Hero with se and no ring=1030%
Hero with thorns + ring=1109%
Hero with thorns+se+ring (if they do stack all of them)=1318%

Still over powered f5.
NLs are still doing 1519% per hit faster than Heroes can do their 1318% per hit, and they don't require having two other classes in the party, just SE. It's not as big of a deal as you're making it out to be.

[Tamillan]

Nah it is huge. Already heros with 1030% do as much dmg as NLs really in bosses like zakum stuff simply b/c they have awesome mobbing skills. If mob comes in the way brandish will stick hit that boss and the mobs too. While NL will only hit the mob and then attack boss. So all this makes hero very close to NL's DPS. When it comes to traniing and soloing bosses we know who is faster and better. NL really are very bad class. They are only good in parties and still not much better. With this thorns NL are going to be lower in the DPS rankings. Corsairs are going to outdmg NLs by a lot....Maybe heros.

[KaidaTan]

HEROES NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL BE STRONGER THAN NLS IN 95% OF SINGLE-TARGET SITUATIONS.

Really, you're missing the point here. You should be far more focused on how absurdly strong Dual Bladers are in their own right than how strong other classes are when they have two different buffs from two different classes. Even before Dual Bladers existed, Aran + SE + Crit Ring are already stronger than everyone. By a lot. And Dual Bladers beat even Aran by a lot more. Balance has long since put a gun to its lips.

[Tamillan]

HEROES NEVER HAVE AND NEVER WILL BE STRONGER THAN NLS IN 95% OF SINGLE-TARGET SITUATIONS.

Really, you're missing the point here. You should be far more focused on how absurdly strong Dual Bladers are in their own right than how strong other classes are when they have two different buffs from two different classes. Even before Dual Bladers existed, Aran + SE + Crit Ring are already stronger than everyone. By a lot. And Dual Bladers beat even Aran by a lot more. Balance has long since put a gun to its lips.

Oh well its k.

I still want to find out about stacking stuff.

[Jellyflower]

Heroes are actually pretty weak, before and after all these changes. The only way to match will be going 2h and given si, but even that's still not enough since classes benefit from si too. They'll be the weakest warrior job pretty soon, bye bye heroes of time. Don't get me wrong, I still love mine, but everyone has overrated heroes to the max, myself inclusively.

It looks like thorns and se work pretty much the same for arans. 100% for 145% damage if you use the 5/20 ring for thorns and 95% for 150% if you use 10/10 ring for se, so effectively 145% and 142.5% more damage.

Oops, arans don't get adv rings right? Only remembered after I posted, so I guess thorns will be better by a bit.

And I don't think dual bladers are that strong - no fake, no stance, low hp will hinder their bossing performance by a bit. Not sure about invincibility frames.

[Tamillan]

Heroes are actually pretty weak, before and after all these changes. The only way to match will be going 2h and given si, but even that's still not enough since classes benefit from si too. They'll be the weakest warrior job pretty soon, bye bye heroes of time. Don't get me wrong, I still love mine, but everyone has overrated heroes to the max, myself inclusively.

It looks like thorns and se work pretty much the same for arans. 100% for 145% damage if you use the 5/20 ring for thorns and 95% for 150% if you use 10/10 ring for se, so effectively 145% and 142.5% more damage.

Oops, arans don't get adv rings right? Only remembered after I posted, so I guess thorns will be better by a bit.

And I don't think dual bladers are that strong - no fake, no stance, low hp will hinder their bossing performance by a bit. Not sure about invincibility frames.

Heros are very good when fighting 1 boss. However, when it comes to 2-3 bosses they are just far stronger than the top DPS classes 1v1 like Corsairs, NLs, BM, etc etc. Training up a hero is too easy lol. They can train fast and with some hp washing they can go any boss pretty much except gb. I say this class is too powerful. With thorns and ring, they are just #1. #1 means not first place DPS, but 1st place in overall performance in bossing and training.

Dual Bladers are strong, but like jelly mentioned stance, fake, low hp, kinda makes a little weaker. They might still be #1 though but im not sure...too new of a class to determine that right now.

Arans are very strong, but they aren't really that much better than hero in overall average DPS. It's only when combos are high. Also arans have low hp too.

I really want to know about rings stacking with thorns and if se and thorns stack. Those are important things to know if you want to really judge the top DPS classes.

[10734]

Does this mean that an aran with SE and thorns has:

70 + 35 + 15 = 120% rate :3 (100% rate maybe?)

and +475% damage?

[Kalovale]

Something tells me Thorns only works for Aran when Combo is under 100.

[KaidaTan]

Heros are very good when fighting 1 boss. However, when it comes to 2-3 bosses they are just far stronger than the top DPS classes 1v1 like Corsairs, NLs, BM, etc etc. Training up a hero is too easy lol. They can train fast and with some hp washing they can go any boss pretty much except gb. I say this class is too powerful. With thorns and ring, they are just #1. #1 means not first place DPS, but 1st place in overall performance in bossing and training.

Dual Bladers are strong, but like jelly mentioned stance, fake, low hp, kinda makes a little weaker. They might still be #1 though but im not sure...too new of a class to determine that right now.

Arans are very strong, but they aren't really that much better than hero in overall average DPS. It's only when combos are high. Also arans have low hp too.

I really want to know about rings stacking with thorns and if se and thorns stack. Those are important things to know if you want to really judge the top DPS classes.
I wish you'd stop talking about DPS as though you know anything about it. Based on your comments on Aran and Heroes thus far, you just have misinformed and bad speculations.


Oops, arans don't get adv rings right? Only remembered after I posted, so I guess thorns will be better by a bit.

And I don't think dual bladers are that strong - no fake, no stance, low hp will hinder their bossing performance by a bit. Not sure about invincibility frames.
Eh? I thought they were able to get the rings the same way any adventurer can. We'll see, I guess.

And Dual Bladers *are* that strong. Even if Thorns and SE don't stack, their potential DPS is *much* higher than Aran and Corsairs, and even moreso if SE and Thorns do stack. It's due to a lot of reasons, but I think Final Cut (doubles their damage 60% of the time) is one of the biggest. Also, behold invincibility frames. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpajIHYlLXM) And I think we still don't know what Stack Effect does. I heard someone say it was "like puppet," but I don't know how that deduction was made. It could still be their defensive skill.


Something tells me Thorns only works for Aran when Combo is under 100.
I honestly think the thing for Aran and Buccs is just a typo and they meant to say it only works with a low combo and on unstunned monsters, respectively. It seems odd that Thorns would only work exactly when you'd expect it not to on those two classes compared to every other class.

[Jellyflower]

The chinese translation for stack effect is as follows:

"Creates a seal/barrier that can prevent monster's magic attack."
Level 30: MP consumption 250, durability/resistance 15500 (most likely hp), lasts for 90 seconds. (This is the old data, but I don't think it was revised anyway)
If it works the same way puppet does, then this is way better than puppet since it's like 2.5x the HP plus it only absorbs magic attacks wth. AND IT LASTS LONGER.

Final cut is just like a mini snipe, since it has a cooldown too. It's great for dealing damage to mobs but single target, you probably can't even do 200k with it. Just curious if the inflicted damage bonus works on bosses or not, if it does, then yea it is hella broken.

Dual blader pretty much becomes the new self-sufficient night lord. They already jacked the most definitive skills that make archers unique.

http://mxd.youwo.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&replyid=2456815&id=324803&page=1&skin=0&Star=1

[Tamillan]

I wish you'd stop talking about DPS as though you know anything about it. Based on your comments on Aran and Heroes thus far, you just have misinformed and bad speculations.


Eh? I thought they were able to get the rings the same way any adventurer can. We'll see, I guess.

And Dual Bladers *are* that strong. Even if Thorns and SE don't stack, their potential DPS is *much* higher than Aran and Corsairs, and even moreso if SE and Thorns do stack. It's due to a lot of reasons, but I think Final Cut (doubles their damage 60% of the time) is one of the biggest. Also, behold invincibility frames. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OpajIHYlLXM) And I think we still don't know what Stack Effect does. I heard someone say it was "like puppet," but I don't know how that deduction was made. It could still be their defensive skill.


I honestly think the thing for Aran and Buccs is just a typo and they meant to say it only works with a low combo and on unstunned monsters, respectively. It seems odd that Thorns would only work exactly when you'd expect it not to on those two classes compared to every other class.

Cough Cough. I think I know a lot better than you about DPS. Dual bladers i dont know much about b/c its a new class and im too lazy to find and calculate the DPS. Aran looks too complicated to find an accurate average DPS. Any other class I know pretty much everything there is. Maybe not so much about the classes in the bottom of the high DPS list. When it comes to star classes like NL, Corsair, BM, Hero, I know very well detailed pros and cons about it.

I think your the one who doesn't know much about this so yeah....

Im sure you know a lot about corsairs b/c you are one and you also made a spreedsheet about it. However, NLs, BMs, Heros, meh i don't think you know much about it.

On paper heros dmg isn't that high compared to NL, but when it comes to the actual fight experience, hero is right below NL around the same as a BM simply b/c of its massive mobbing skills. They have awesome mob control at major bosses and are perfect rushers. I am NL....and I know through experience it is an awesome class that does massive dmg, but not really well in others things like training.... Heros can boss and train easy. Not only that, but now days GMS has many bosses that are not only 1v1 and involve multiple bosses at once like cwkpq, scar/targa (though it can be found seperate), zakum arms, and I think thats all. Of course BigFoot, heros are #1 there. No NL can kill as fast as that. Hp wash a hero to max hp, it can go any boss. NL is ranged and it can fight from far and avoid high dmges, but if some noob rusher comes in and rushes anego or Bf at you, then you are dead.

Corsair I don't have to say anything about it to you b/c you probably know everything about it.

About the combo 1.9 x multiplier, it is true that it is multiplied before se/thorns effect. So that part is true. However heros are an awesome class just like NLs, and it shouldn't be underestimated.

[Dusk]

I think I know a lot better than you about DPS.

haha oh wow

My calculator is over a year old and has its share of formula mistakes. KaidaTan is the expert on DPS here.

[Jellyflower]

I know this thread is getting derailed but, your aspect of dps is different than the rest of us. Ours is based on 100% efficiency, you based on 'real' experience which I agree will make heroes have a upperhand. Of course at mobbing, heroes/dks win hands down and KaidaTan and I just really go horntail and not zakum or cwkpq nor even scar/targa so that potential in the classes are non-valuable for us. It's like saying bishops have the best dps at skeles, well duh. I have a hero, dark knight, bowmaster, bishop myself and I've played a night lord, paladin before so I know a bit from experience too. Aran can kill bigfoot in 2 min with se, same level paladin kills in 3.5-4min (both have perfect gear and level 200). Overall, hero is #1 well rounded, but if we're talking about straight dps no interruption and external factors, KaidaTan is right and it's easy to compare experience too.

[Tamillan]

haha oh wow

My calculator is over a year old and has its share of formula mistakes. KaidaTan is the expert on DPS here.

Nah, the formulas you have a right, except there are few that I noticed are wrong right now, but most of the parts are right. I know which ones and I based my theory on my own calculations, so dw.

KaidaTan knows a lot about Corsairs, but the other classes, I don't really think so. KaidaTan has the perfect paper calculations, but experience wise, I think I know much more....
After all I have a NL myself and I've bossed to know the pros and cons and which class really stands out when it comes to bossing.


I know this thread is getting derailed but, your aspect of dps is different than the rest of us. Ours is based on 100% efficiency, you based on 'real' experience which I agree will make heroes have a upperhand. Of course at mobbing, heroes/dks win hands down and KaidaTan and I just really go horntail and not zakum or cwkpq nor even scar/targa so that potential in the classes are non-valuable for us. It's like saying bishops have the best dps at skeles, well duh. I have a hero, dark knight, bowmaster, bishop myself and I've played a night lord, paladin before so I know a bit from experience too. Aran can kill bigfoot in 2 min with se, same level paladin kills in 3.5-4min (both have perfect gear and level 200). Overall, hero is #1 well rounded, but if we're talking about straight dps no interruption and external factors, KaidaTan is right and it's easy to compare experience too.

Actually you are right about that. I agree with that. =)

Well all i wanted to say was about my experience in Scania with my NL and some other top bossing classes experience. Of course I calculated the paper work DPS too, but I just mix both to base my idea on DPS. Anyways I just wanted to let people know that not only paper work counts, but also experience. Its cool =).

[KaidaTan]

KaidaTan knows a lot about Corsairs, but the other classes, I don't really think so. KaidaTan has the perfect paper calculations, but experience wise, I think I know much more....
After all I have a NL myself and I've bossed to know the pros and cons and which class really stands out when it comes to bossing.
I'm well aware of "real experience" and I know whom it affects and how much. However, I don't feel that it can be fairly measured when it can differ so vastly from boss to boss. I think it's better to have an absolute standard rather than a variable standard. It's impractical and I don't want to have to make DPS sheets for every boss. And even then, player skill would make such a huge difference even between players of a single class (Aran and Corsairs are prime examples of where skill and decision-making can directly translate to a significant increase or decrease in DPS in a situation such as HT) that it wouldn't be a very accurate sheet to begin with.

People tend to assume that I think the numbers I come up with for my DPS stuff is written in stone and absolutely 100% true all of the time, considering how often I talk about DPS. But even I know when to take my own numbers with a grain of salt, especially in extreme circumstances (Soloing Zak, BG A, and so on). However, at a normal boss such as HT, the difference in efficiency (how close they can get to their maximum potential) between classes is almost never big enough to make a class that was doing excellent on paper suddenly do worse than the next few classes.

So, in short, I do realize that some classes are better at staying close to their maximum potential than others, however I don't think that there's such a large difference between them in *most* bossing situations for it to be considered for cross-class calculation. And even if it were, it's nigh incalculable anyway.


Final cut is just like a mini snipe, since it has a cooldown too. It's great for dealing damage to mobs but single target, you probably can't even do 200k with it. Just curious if the inflicted damage bonus works on bosses or not, if it does, then yea it is hella broken.
From between what I've gathered from videos, the skill description, and what Takebacker has told me, Final Cut seems to be an attack like any other with a 100 second cooldown and a Pierce-esque charge time. However, after using it, you get a buff (signified by the glowing owl eyes over your head) that doubles your damage for 60 seconds. I can't tell by the numbers (because I couldn't see them), but in that Pianus video I've linked a few times, it probably works on bosses. I don't see why it wouldn't, honestly.

[Jellyflower]

Looks like the damage boost on final cut differs for each skill. So there needs to be experiments done. And the skill kills you if you're not careful when you charge and activate, 65% of max hp ouch.

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.insoya.com%2Fbbs%2Fzboard.php%3 Fid%3Dsimple_info%26divpage%3D2%26sn%3Don%26ss%3Do n%26sc%3Don%26keyword%3D%25EC%258F%259C%25EC%25A6% 2588%26no%3D7849

Here's another uber damage with final cut, Aran or Dual blader? =/
And it looks like sharp eyes and thorns don't stack, in fact, they replace each others' buff so looks like DB won't be liking archers.

http://translate.google.ca/translate?hl=en&sl=ko&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.insoya.com%2Fbbs%2Fzboard.php%3 Fid%3Djob_thief%26divpage%3D4%26sn%3Don%26ss%3Don% 26sc%3Don%26keyword%3D%25EC%258F%259C%25EC%25A6%25 88%26no%3D15130

[JoeTang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuNlf3TnIAs&feature=player_embedded

Yes, after further consideration of the video evidence that I had previously posted, I have come to the same conclusion that SE and Thorns do not stack, though they did not appear to cancel each other in the buff list either in KMST.
The video in question is prior to the update where Fatal Blow does 180% damage per hit, and only does 125%. Observed in the video are extremely high, near 30k Fatal Blows (though I did not witness any 30k+ hits) on Dagger hits (low end was high 10ks), and 6~10kish Blade Hits (wasn't really paying attention to Blade hits); however, the highest damage hit noted was a 56715 done by a Flying Assaulter Critical. 56175 @ 650% (400% + 250%) gives an 8642 Base damage. This does work out to 30k+ Criticals on Fatal Blow if reached, but this was never observed. What was observed, however, was a ~11471 non-Upper Stab, non-Critical Fatal Blow hit, thus filling in the possible range to hit so high on a Flying Assaulter without the assist of a secondary Critical. So unless Final Cut does had significantly different multipliers to each skill, the same ratio should be applied to each observed hit to calculate the base range possibilities for this.

[Cancambo]

The chinese translation for stack effect is as follows:

"Creates a seal/barrier that can prevent monster's magic attack."
Level 30: MP consumption 250, durability/resistance 15500 (most likely hp), lasts for 90 seconds. (This is the old data, but I don't think it was revised anyway)
If it works the same way puppet does, then this is way better than puppet since it's like 2.5x the HP plus it only absorbs magic attacks wth. AND IT LASTS LONGER.

Final cut is just like a mini snipe, since it has a cooldown too. It's great for dealing damage to mobs but single target, you probably can't even do 200k with it. Just curious if the inflicted damage bonus works on bosses or not, if it does, then yea it is hella broken.

Dual blader pretty much becomes the new self-sufficient night lord. They already jacked the most definitive skills that make archers unique.

http://mxd.youwo.com/bbs/dispbbs.asp?boardid=2&replyid=2456815&id=324803&page=1&skin=0&Star=1

Stack Effect leaves a "dummy" of you somewhere. This "dummy" is your mirror image, so by using stack effect you are giving up your attacking bonus you get from mirror imaging. This is according to Spadow.
http://spadow.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/goodbye-february-hello-march/

http://spadow.files.wordpress.com/2010/02/dualbladett4.png?w=207&h=171
Dummy Effect. You can summon a dummy of yourself only when you have Mirror Imaging on.
Your alternate self will separate and be a dummy.
Monsters will attack the summoned dummy, but your dummy has a certain value of stamina. Once that value has been reached, your dummy will disappear.

This skill works like the Puppet skill of a Ranger.

Also, Arans can get critical rings. The critical ring is able to be traded once through your own account. All you got to do is make an adventurer and get it to level 50 and transfer the ring over to your Aran.

[Tamillan]

I'm well aware of "real experience" and I know whom it affects and how much. However, I don't feel that it can be fairly measured when it can differ so vastly from boss to boss. I think it's better to have an absolute standard rather than a variable standard. It's impractical and I don't want to have to make DPS sheets for every boss. And even then, player skill would make such a huge difference even between players of a single class (Aran and Corsairs are prime examples of where skill and decision-making can directly translate to a significant increase or decrease in DPS in a situation such as HT) that it wouldn't be a very accurate sheet to begin with.

People tend to assume that I think the numbers I come up with for my DPS stuff is written in stone and absolutely 100% true all of the time, considering how often I talk about DPS. But even I know when to take my own numbers with a grain of salt, especially in extreme circumstances (Soloing Zak, BG A, and so on). However, at a normal boss such as HT, the difference in efficiency (how close they can get to their maximum potential) between classes is almost never big enough to make a class that was doing excellent on paper suddenly do worse than the next few classes.

So, in short, I do realize that some classes are better at staying close to their maximum potential than others, however I don't think that there's such a large difference between them in *most* bossing situations for it to be considered for cross-class calculation. And even if it were, it's nigh incalculable anyway.


From between what I've gathered from videos, the skill description, and what Takebacker has told me, Final Cut seems to be an attack like any other with a 100 second cooldown and a Pierce-esque charge time. However, after using it, you get a buff (signified by the glowing owl eyes over your head) that doubles your damage for 60 seconds. I can't tell by the numbers (because I couldn't see them), but in that Pianus video I've linked a few times, it probably works on bosses. I don't see why it wouldn't, honestly.

I see.

Also something I would like to say to everyone is even with thorns and ring assuming thorns doesn't stack with se, it is not so bad actually. I think the classes that are top right now will stil remain top probably with dual bladers in the list too.

[Jellyflower]

Lol, if a dual blader gives thorns to another dual blader, the effect is halved like melee classes. This is one messed up skill.

http://www.insoya.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=job_thief&no=14825

[KaidaTan]

Lol, if a dual blader gives thorns to another dual blader, the effect is halved like melee classes. This is one messed up skill.

http://www.insoya.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=job_thief&no=14825
I can has good coding?

[Tamillan]

That is confusing o.O

Hmmm maybe that can restrict people from putting more than 1 dual blader per party. If this class is mad strong, then people just put 30 dual bladers and go bossing like zak lol. So this is good news.

[KaidaTan]

That is confusing o.O

Hmmm maybe that can restrict people from putting more than 1 dual blader per party. If this class is mad strong, then people just put 30 dual bladers and go bossing like zak lol. So this is good news.
Naw, it just means they suck at coding. It *should* have been made to work at full power on all Dual Bladers, not just the one that casted it. But they totally forgot about it and made it work at half-power on everyone who receives the buff. And in your example, they'd just all go partyless anyway.

[Tamillan]

Naw, it just means they suck at coding. It *should* have been made to work at full power on all Dual Bladers, not just the one that casted it. But they totally forgot about it and made it work at half-power on everyone who receives the buff. And in your example, they'd just all go partyless anyway.

Going party is more exp though. Hmmmm with the newer class info in extraction section, this dual blader might come to GMS very soon.

[MagicsBISH]

Going party is more exp though. Hmmmm with the newer class info in extraction section, this dual blader might come to GMS very soon.

I hope so! IM READY for it. All i need is my Reverse Dagger and a Reverse Blade!!

[Jellyflower]

Can someone translate this please, google translate is too messy.

http://www.insoya.com/bbs/zboard.php?id=simple_info&no=7975

[Empyrean]

o.O Why can't we just enjoy the game? Well even with the thorn skill. Shadower still not going anyway XD Don't think its gonna be wanted in any boss run still, so yeah, with thron it will be a lot easier to solo boss. except for Buccaneer :( poor them having thorn is like having nothing at all at bossing :( amen to that and hopefully gMS have a kind heart and change that for ya

And also.. let the top Boss machine still remain the top !! congratulations to Corsair and Hero... And thank god !! thorn doesn't stack with the critical NL already had.