[1.2.279] Skill nerfs this time

[Fiel]

F/P Mage (II)
- Fire Arrow - Hits three mobs instead of four

Ranger
- Inferno - Burn time reduced from 7 seconds to 6 seconds. Seconds of burn time is equal to the following --> 1 - 10 = 0 seconds, 11 - 20 = 3 seconds, 21 - 30 = 6 seconds

Marksman
- Snipe - This is a STRING change, not a skill change! They changed the max level of snipe to show 5 seconds instead of 4. This is strange because the skill data still says 4 seconds.


Chief Oblivion Guardian - Weak to Poison, Weak to Ice, Weak to Lightning

[Magatia]

If they were indeed attempting to nerf snipe, that's a horrible move. MMs are far from overpowered. To add on, no classes apart from archers were nerfed during the skill changes.

[Lozmaster]

Yeah, I was totally seeing inferno being overpowered there.

[Magatia]

Yeah, I was totally seeing inferno being overpowered there.

Definitely sarcasm :f3:

[Chameleonic]

How much damage does it do when it is "burning"?

[Shidoshi]

Good they saw Fire Arrow was overpowered like that for 2nd job.

[Lozmaster]

How much damage does it do when it is "burning"?

Honestly, it doesn't matter, at the VERY best it'd be 30 SP to cast it once, then switch immediatly back to using bomb arrow.

[fiftyschmooo]

How much damage does it do when it is "burning"?

since its nexon and they cant be horribilly creative.. i would assume it would do like the same damage as like Flame Thrower where it is basically 5% of your damage dealt per second (deal 1K the monster takes 50 per second for liek a total of 300. or they could make it like Fire demon(cant remember how the dps for that was figured out but it was a certain %age of the monsters hp, it will be no where close to being useful i would imagine, cause it would have to deal like... 15% of the monsters hp Per second for any kind of cycleing goodness otherwise its almost a pointless upgrade

[Chameleonic]

Honestly, it doesn't matter, at the VERY best it'd be 30 SP to cast it once, then switch immediatly back to using bomb arrow.

It would matter if it was like 2000% per second. :f3:

I thought it might have a burn % in the data like Flame Thrower does.

[ArbalistMaster]

Marksman
- Snipe - This is a STRING change, not a skill change! They changed the max level of snipe to show 5 seconds instead of 4. This is strange because the skill data still says 4 seconds.

That's because even with a 1 second cooldown in the data, we'd only be able to shoot it every 5 seconds anyway.

B> pierce adjustment so that it's actually as useful in reality as it looks on paper.... seriously, charge up and low HP don't go together, and the damage distribution should be changed. The 6th mob is massive overkill so on paper its ZOMG AWESOMESAUCE, but in reality I need to shoot 3 to take down a mob of guardians at oblivion, the last dies on the first hit so all that potential is wasted 2/3rds of the time unless I manage to make a mob > 6. but DB only pushes 6 so it's not that easy.

[TamilTiger1]

since its nexon and they cant be horribilly creative.. i would assume it would do like the same damage as like Flame Thrower where it is basically 5% of your damage dealt per second (deal 1K the monster takes 50 per second for liek a total of 300. or they could make it like Fire demon(cant remember how the dps for that was figured out but it was a certain %age of the monsters hp, it will be no where close to being useful i would imagine, cause it would have to deal like... 15% of the monsters hp Per second for any kind of cycleing goodness otherwise its almost a pointless upgrade

Exactly, they have no mobility at all unlike mages using that type of attack. We have to kill the mob to move onto the next, and its pointless doing ~1-3k per second like fire/ice demons. Mobs don't even survive for over 2 seconds with arrow bomb + hurricane anyway.

Yay for Oblivion 4 maps for Ice Archmages. Can't wait for it to come here. Skele is probably still faster exp just because of the map design.

[JoeTang]

Guessing they've agreed that Dual Charging doesn't make third job overpowered at all?

[MysticHLE]

Chief Oblivion Guardian - Weak to Poison, Weak to Ice, Weak to Lightning

Okay this is the only thing I wanted to see. :f2: Hello ToT...my new Paladin home. <3

[Asumi]

Chief Oblivion Guardian - Weak to Poison, Weak to Ice, Weak to Lightning

Not sure but, arent they already weak to poison? :f6:

[Fiel]

If I had left that part out, you might have asked "Wait, weren't they weak to Poison before? Are they not weak now?"

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Whenever possible I write in the assertive.

[PirateMG]

hopefully we will see more class changes soon . nice to see that they realized that some of the changes to there skills aren't that good of an idea and change it again. rather then leaving it the way it is and act like it was ment to be that way. ( i'm not agents any of these classes just wanted to say they really are re balancing the classes)

[KaidaTan]

I still think they're out of their fking minds.

[MysticHLE]

I still think they're out of their fking minds.

Chill for now, nothing's finalized yet. At the pace that we're going now with balance patches, we're gonna see at least 10 more of these patches before the end of the month. lol

[KaidaTan]

I know there are things to come, but you have to look at the implications of a patch like this and the last few.

Them increasing Arrow Bomb, adding a shatter effect on Strafe, and adding burn damage to Inferno indicate to me that they have no idea what's wrong with the classes or how to fix 'em. They actually made the Arrow Bomb/Inferno relation worse!

So far, the only classes that got decent upgrades were Corsairs, Shadowers, and Paladins. Hopefully whomever designed those changes will come back and fix the rest of the classes because their B-squad isn't cutting it.

[Retalion]

was the inferno burn inserted in one of the previous skill balancing? I seem to remember my inferno not burning at all O_o...any burning time will be an upgrade albeit small and of little use.

[byakugan]

And this way, nexon screwes over the little fix they had done to inferno. There's barely any BM's with inferno above lvl 10 out there, so it's back to being useless.

I am afraid when they said in their poster "Don't feel bad if you don't see any changes to your job yet, the transformation to adventurers continues..." they were refering to these patches before the 7th, oficial date for the release of the balancing patch.

[Kirov]

was the inferno burn inserted in one of the previous skill balancing? I seem to remember my inferno not burning at all O_o...any burning time will be an upgrade albeit small and of little use.

It was added in Ver 1.2.278

[Nature]

Looks like nexon is totally done with shadower upgrades. I would like to see assassinate animation speed up a little. Venom it practically forced on to us now. If max venom was already overkill with the new rates Chief Oblivion Guardians will be a breeze.
Experience and monster killing rate has went up dramatically.:glitter:

[Bomber]

Yey @ chief oblivion.
:glitter:

[Sarah]

Annnd we officially need a Chief Oblivion mini-dungeon.

Preferably shaped exactly like Obli4 where ultimates can't be spammed. I mean, I'm all for faster training but I think it would be a big mistake to allow I/L's to dominate an entire map there. PoTs would drop to crazy low prices and yeah. No thanks. As long as I can train my Aran there I'm happy.

[byakugan]

Yey @ chief oblivion.
:glitter:

Yet, some one in the other thread was saying Shadowers still are "utter crap" :f7:

[Dual]

Temple of Time has been turned into crap now. Those Mages are now gonna be hogging the entire map.

[Greg]

TOP MELEE TRAINING CLASS COMING THROUGH, VENOM'S GONNA WRECK SHIt UP OH MAN OH MAN

[Bomber]

Temple of Time has been turned into crap now. Those Mages are now gonna be hogging the entire map.

Well, skeles are still great for mages compared to O4. And I'm all for lower PoT prices. *needs a new executioner*(125/14/2).
But I'd hate it if mages do come, but it's not too compelling.

[Bomber]

Yet, some one in the other thread was saying Shadowers still are "utter crap" :f7:

Cheif were ALWAYS poison weak :goggle:

[Greg]

Cheif were ALWAYS poison weak :goggle:

I don't think my Venom was any stronger against them than it was against any other monster.

[Nature]

It will be possible to find a empty O4 or O3 room. Most people are to lazy to get that deep in time temple anyway.

[Bomber]

I don't think my Venom was any stronger against them than it was against any other monster.

Ok.
I don't get the point of him quoting me then o__0

[Dual]

It will be possible to find a empty O4 or O3 room. Most people are to lazy to get that deep in time temple anyway.

Mages have the fastest completion rate of any class when it comes to a "Kill X Mosters" quest. So plenty of I/L Mages will go there to train.

[Stereo]

It will be possible to find a empty O4 or O3 room. Most people are to lazy to get that deep in time temple anyway.

Maybe on Bellocan. O4 is already full on Bera during "prime time", I go to O2 now on my Paladin. Considering the A/Ms and Paladins already train on O4, these buffs (elemental weakness) are just gonna make all 5 oblivion maps crowded.

19 channels for anyone over level 128 is really not good enough. Mages may claim they're less common than Bishops, but there are still more than 20 of them in the 130-200 level range.


. And I'm all for lower PoT prices.

Wait, why? As a Paladin, PoTs are easily my best source of income. I average 15mil per hour on 1x, and I can train whenever I want, every day of the week. I stopped APQing because it's a waste of my time. If I need apples I can buy them for less than the time input of going to APQs.

[Dusk]

If Inferno is a 10% burn, it'll be good enough to use once per mob and then go back to Arrow Bombing. BMs are terrible mobbers so they should be able to get a good 3-4 seconds of the burn in at the very least. Inferno + SE + a full burn is 531.2% damage, while AB is 348%. If it's a 5% burn, it's still useless.

[FrozNlite]

Annnd we officially need a Chief Oblivion mini-dungeon.

Preferably shaped exactly like Obli4 where ultimates can't be spammed. I mean, I'm all for faster training but I think it would be a big mistake to allow I/L's to dominate an entire map there. PoTs would drop to crazy low prices and yeah. No thanks. As long as I can train my Aran there I'm happy.

More like a good map for ultimate spamming. Such a map would be smaller, more condensed, with higher spawn rates, and in keeping platforms within ultimate range it helps Arans climbing around trying to keep combo counters high. On top of this, if the map was built for ultimates then the legitimate fears phrased by DualReaver would dissipate as non-Magicians could continue finding open Oblivion maps.

OT: Great rebalancing patch for ArchMages. 120/3 mob Fire Arrow v. 140/6 mob Fire Demon is definitely a great difference/balance, though again, I think nerfing ultimates to boost non-ultimate mob training would be much nicer (ex. something like 300 Fire Demon similar to Evan Flame Wheel, used in tandem with a 320 Paralyze and a 350 1-second attacking Elquines, all used by early 4th job ArchMages as they build up for the true training power: 450 or something attack ultimates that are only better than tri-skill mobbing for training at higher levels). And, of course, the final change to Chief Guardians was necessary.

[Nature]

Apq is a waste of time. I'm lucky to even find a party on ch 1. PoTs are worth more effort then waiting for a party of 6 to get ready to apq hoping you get more than 1 person that actually knows how to do the pq.

[Will]

Yay at chief guardian update! :heart:

[Baklavo]

Guessing they've agreed that Dual Charging doesn't make third job overpowered at all?

Guessing they've agreed that hermits aren't overpowered at all?

[PirateIzzy]

I just hope that when the Time Temple mob updates come out in GMS, A/Ms and Paladins won't occupy all the maps in Road to Oblivion.

[Jormungandr]

Chief Oblivion Guardian - Weak to Poison, Weak to Ice, Weak to Lightning

YES. MOTHERFKING YES.
FINALLY we get a monster weak to ice.

I CAN FINALLY 1 HIT THIS THING.

[Nature]

If lucky 7 and triple throw formula wasn't so lol broken they probably would of got updates as well.

[Schrono]

On a positive note, even if you can't get an Oblivion 4 or 5 map to train on, atleast PoT will deflate. Though I guess that's actually two negatives if you train there and sell PoT.

[Nature]

I just hope that when the Time Temple mob updates come out in GMS, A/Ms and Paladins won't occupy all the maps in Road to Oblivion.
Hope for mini dungeons. These maps are now mage territory.

[Dual]

YES. MOTHERFKING YES.
FINALLY we get a monster weak to ice.

I CAN FINALLY 1 HIT THIS THING.

1/19 Bellocan Oblivion 4 maps filled.

[SuperMario64]

Most of the Shadower complaints were about bossing rather than training. :poast:

[Bomber]

1/19 Bellocan Oblivion 4 maps filled.

You really need to stop complaining...

[Nature]

I'm happy with the updates were all around better than Night lords now if they don't have apples and Se. Assassinate is now even more useless at training because of Venom. Nls only have advantage on us and thats party bossing if i can solo it regardless if its slower than other classes i'm fine with it.

[Hazzy]

Hope for mini dungeons. These maps are now mage territory.

*crosses fingers for magical resistance*
Hey, PB has physical. :P

[Kabanaw]

Don't worry, chances are ToT training for mages will probably still be slower than spamming Skeles or Newts due to movement. However, I will be training here because it seems more fun than pushing a button.

[Takebacker]

Don't worry, chances are ToT training for mages will probably still be slower than spamming Skeles or Newts due to movement. However, I will be training here because it seems more fun than pushing a button.

One can only imagine how much rape will ensue with 2 ohkoing I/L mages with an HS mule at O4 after this comes around.

[Kabanaw]

One can only imagine how much rape will ensue with 2 ohkoing I/L mages with an HS mule at O4 after this comes around.

Imagine how much more for other classes partying with them- look out Bishops at skeles.

[Dual]

I wonder if this means we'll have leeching at O4.

[PirateIzzy]

I wonder if this means we'll have leeching at O4.

Probably not, because of the map layout, but you never know.

[IllegallySane]

YES. MOTHERFKING YES.
FINALLY we get a monster weak to ice.

I CAN FINALLY 1 HIT THIS THING.

Nooooo. Stay out of ma Oblivion 4. :(

[CrimsonJohnny]

I wonder if this means we'll have leeching at O4.

I have a hard time believing that your average leech would be that far into TT quests.

[DarkAbyzz54]

I have a hard time believing that your average leech would be that far into TT quests.

You can always door with the HS mule xP unless you're trying to make a different point that i'm missing.

[Kabanaw]

You can always door with the HS mule xP unless you're trying to make a different point that i'm missing.

Even if you could get there with door, there's still the issue that they won't get exp from gaurds until 123 and chiefs until 128, and due to the new exp formula you're better off training at this level.

[dpeterlin]

I have no problem getting skipped over for rebalancing, but if this does end up screwing over my training/moneymaking ill be pretty pissed.

Hopefully 04 will not be spammer friendly at all --
I guess I'll just have to wait this out to see the real changes to my gameplay once implemented

[Hazzy]

Even if you could get there with door, there's still the issue that they won't get exp from gaurds until 123 and chiefs until 128, and due to the new exp formula you're better off training at this level.

Someone would bring a PG mule. D:

[KajitiSouls]

I just saw this thread...

Paladins are now fking GODS in Oblivion 3/4/5!

(notice I didn't say LOLPALLY)

[Kabanaw]

Someone would bring a PG mule. D:

So now we've got:

level 14x-15x AM to 1HKO mobs
level 131+ bishop to door the leecher and provide HS
a PG mule with a high enough HP to survive a hit
That exp cut for a 10x-12x is getting pretty small...

[CarpeDiem]

YAY!
More Mages can steal my maps :f2:

[Rick]

Why is it that when any class other than a Magician uses a popular map they are training on it, yet when a Magician uses it they are hogging it? Magicians need to train to, for Arch Mages it's all they can do :f7: Oblivion 5 looks much more suited to ultimates anyway.

[Hazzy]

Because when mages start to train somewhere, the population of people training there goes up 5 fold. There's just that many of them.

[Rick]

And it is hogging... why?

[Bribery]

The problem I have with Bishops/Arch Mages being able to train in a popular map without a minidungeon is that if an asshole AM/Bishop decides to come in and KS, the only way to KS them out is with another Bishop/AM. Galloperas is a perfect example of this. Oblivion 4 is going to be packed during peak hours/2x events and I/Ls can easily KS anyone out of that map now.

[Takebacker]

And it is hogging... why?

Because the majority of I/Ls are dicks during 2x events.

This will only become a problem however if the new area KMS makes does not have a new O4 with better exp mobs.

[SethElite]

I like how people cry about ultimates when mages have to deal with getting their asses KSed by every other non-melee class until they get ultimates.

[Rick]

But why is it hogging? They're not using any more than they need. And once more, Oblivion 4 is not spammer friendly. Oblivion 5 IS.

[Takebacker]

I like how people cry about ultimates when mages have to deal with getting their asses KSed by every other non-melee class until they get ultimates.

How on earth can a ranged class KS a mage pre 4th job?


Oblivion 5 is spammer friendly.

Edit: Whoops, forgot that everyone trains on oblivion 4.

[Bomber]

Because the majority of I/Ls are dicks during 2x events.

This will only become a problem however if the new area KMS makes does not have a new O4 with better exp mobs.

Dreadfully, I have to agree.
@ rick: Ults don't always hit top/bottom platforms. I've tried on heavens hammer, though I'm pretty sure they have the same range.

[Rick]

Is it wrong for me to wish that every Anego, Pianus, Crow, whatever map barred all non-Magicians from entry? Because I got pretty bloody tired of being KSed in there. Deal with it. Just because some decide to abuse their power, don't wish ill upon the rest.

[Bomber]

Is it wrong for me to wish that every Anego, Pianus, Crow, whatever map barred all non-Magicians from entry? Because I got pretty bloody tired of being KSed in there. Deal with it. Just because some decide to abuse their power, don't wish ill upon the rest.

Oh, so because we kill bosses (though I'd say it's bad to KS), you have the right to KS us?
Edit: I just noticed ure last sentence. :|

[Dusk]

I wonder if this means we'll have leeching at O4.

There aren't any 100% safe spots at O4, and the one almost safe spot is way over in the top right corner. Kinda hard to AFK, in any case.

[Dual]

The main reason why people complain about Mages being able to use a map is the fact that they already are gods of training in the lower exp areas. If an I/L AM can get more exp at Oblivion 4, he will go train there. And then we experience the whole "needing a minidungeon" problem again.

[Rick]

If a non-Magician has the right to go where the best exp is, so should a Magician, and others shouldn't expect otherwise.

[IllegallySane]

The main reason why people complain about Mages being able to use a map is the fact that they already are gods of training in the lower exp areas. If an I/L AM can get more exp at Oblivion 4, he will go train there. And then we experience the whole "needing a minidungeon" problem again.

This. O4 is as good a training map as it can come for solo-ers, and without mini-dungeons the last thing I need are I/L jerks kicking me out of the only map I actually enjoy training in.

Also, I see my PoT future looking grim... sigh I may need to rely on Scarlion/Zakum helm selling now to make ends meet.




If a non-Magician has the right to go where the best exp is, so should a Magician, and others shouldn't expect otherwise.

Not before they at least implement a mini-dungeon version of Time Temple. The only reason they didn't need it before was because A/Ms can't 1-hit/nuke the whole map. Now that they can, people WILL invade, and we need more maps to accompany the inevitable amount of people populating the Oblivion maps.

[Dual]

If a non-Magician has the right to go where the best exp is, so should a Magician, and others shouldn't expect otherwise.

They do have the right to. We only complain about it because it reduces the number of maps we can use. Now we're going to need an Oblivion 4 Minidungeon.

[Bomber]

If a non-Magician has the right to go where the best exp is, so should a Magician, and others shouldn't expect otherwise.

If every Mage did that, the end result would be mages fighting each other/fighting ks wars w/ any classes.
Edit: I'm talking about all kradia and older servers & most chs MAGES.
it's a huge ch war cycle we went through @ skeles and other popular leech/training maps.

[FrozNlite]

If every Mage did that, the end result would be mages fighting each other/fighting ks wars w/ any classes.
Edit: I'm talking about all kradia and older servers & most chs MAGES.
it's a huge ch war cycle we went through @ skeles and other popular leech/training maps.

This whole debate is just the story of the game. I mean seriously, you guys don't think this shit goes on between god single target DPS classes at Bigfoot or Anego? Especially during 2x events?

Lay off the ArchMages, please. At least when you level your weapon attack classes you have boss runs to look forward to.

[Dual]

This whole debate is just the story of the game. I mean seriously, you guys don't think this shit goes on between god single target DPS classes at Bigfoot or Anego? Especially during 2x events?

Lay off the ArchMages, please. At least when you level your weapon attack classes you have boss runs to look forward to.

That's different. Bigfoot and Anego are something that are limited, meaning you kill one or two and then move on to an actual training map. Now we'll have to revert back to Skeles because Mages will be able to spam the one area in game we can train that an AM can't.

And we can only look forward to bossing if we can level up, which is now limited because of the fact that Mages can kill in pretty much every good training map that isn't Minidungeoned out there.

[Sarah]

I have to agree with the melee classes. Skeles may be boring but they're perfectly suited for us, where oblivion is much better suited for close range players. Not to mention that skele mini-dungeon is crap for them, so the little extra experience they gain for not being able to nuke the entire map makes the trade-off a little more fair. Just because we are equally deserving of more experience doesn't mean that we need to be there, basically.

I sympathize greatly with the close range players that will get KS'd, and I will continue to train at skeles until somewhere new is released that is suitable for a dual spamming team.

[Kabanaw]

That's different. Bigfoot and Anego are something that are limited, meaning you kill one or two and then move on to an actual training map. Now we'll have to revert back to Skeles because Mages will be able to spam the one area in game we can train that an AM can't.

And we can only look forward to bossing if we can level up, which is now limited because of the fact that Mages can kill in pretty much every good training map that isn't Minidungeoned out there.

I think you're over-estimating how ZOMGPWNZ AMs will be at these maps. Remember that the maps are designed to create smaller mobs, while ultimates's power come from being able to attack large mobs. Your only real competiton would be an AM using CL, but they'd be killing at the same rate as you.

[Dual]

I think you're over-estimating how ZOMGPWNZ AMs will be at these maps. Remember that the maps are designed to create smaller mobs, while ultimates's power come from being able to attack large mobs. Your only real competiton would be an AM using CL, but they'd be killing at the same rate as you.

They can follow you around a map and kill with new boosted Blizzard and increased Amp. Tele will allow them to outrace almost every class, guaranteeing they could take a map if they wanted to. By standing on the steps up to another platform, they can hit both of them, and with the natural top to bottom and left to right teleports on the map, they can easily get into a position to attack.

[Kabanaw]

Then can follow you around a map and kill with new boosted Blizzard and increased Amp. Tele will allow them to outrace almost every class, guarenteeing they could take a map if they wanted to.

But also remember that there's a few seconds after every blizz cast where AMs can't move. Besides, by 4th job pretty much every class has a movement skill, even warriors (or does rush not work without mobs to push?) So you should be able to stay ahead pretty well, at least to get a few hits in before the AM catches up. Plus oblivion 5 looks like a better layout for ultimate spamming anyways.


Edit: Bomber, you got ninja'd not only by the same points Dual but by my responses.

[Bomber]

I think you're over-estimating how ZOMGPWNZ AMs will be at these maps. Remember that the maps are designed to create smaller mobs, while ultimates's power come from being able to attack large mobs. Your only real competiton would be an AM using CL, but they'd be killing at the same rate as you.

Say hi tele and new amp.

[IllegallySane]

But also remember that there's a few seconds after every blizz cast where AMs can't move. Besides, by 4th job pretty much every class has a movement skill, even warriors (or does rush not work without mobs to push?) So you should be able to stay ahead pretty well, at least to get a few hits in before the AM catches up. Plus oblivion 5 looks like a better layout for ultimate spamming anyways.

Few seconds of waiting matters diddily when eveything in the map gets hit, which automatically tags those mobs to give the bigger chunk of EXP to the I/L AM thanks to the new Oblivion Monster weakness to Ice, which helps GUESS WHAT, a boosted Blizzard (from a power of 798 to 900, a 12% increase, and this is before Ice-weak weakness is applied. New weakness + New AMPed Blizzard will go from 1197 to 1350)! Not to mention the Time Pieces lewt.

[Bomber]

But also remember that there's a few seconds after every blizz cast where AMs can't move. Besides, by 4th job pretty much every class has a movement skill, even warriors (or does rush not work without mobs to push?) So you should be able to stay ahead pretty well, at least to get a few hits in before the AM catches up. Plus oblivion 5 looks like a better layout for ultimate spamming anyways.

Rush works only with mobs and is little compensation for how slow warriors(other than DW) are.

[Dual]

Oblivion 5 has a boss to deal with, and that thing sure is annoying to deal with every 2 hours when training. That's why we don't train there often. And yes, if a warrior uses Rush and a mob has already been classified as dead by Blizzard, I can't Rush to it, and then I waste half a second or two going through the animation itself without being able to attack. Not to mention almost any class other than an I/L AM would even be able to come close to 1h them often, unless you get a strong dual-charged Paladin, who would only be able to do it on a single monster to an I/L's 15. Even Heaven's Hammer, a skill that has the same range as Blizzard and reduces HP to 1 isn't good enough, because HH isn't even applied if a monster dies from Blizzard before the animation ends.

[Kabanaw]

I've played on ToT maps using an AM before; You don't hit nearly everything on the map. You hit two platforms, three if you're lucky, and the mobs are rarely larger than 7 or 8. If ToT were amazing for ult spamming, then you'd see a hell of a lot more F/Ps at regret maps.


And as I said, look at oblivion 5. It has 4 levels all across the map, creating a much better area for ultimate spamming. AMs and WA classes may very well not even interact. Edit: Ah, i see what you're saying about oblivion 5.

[Turtally]

As stoked as I am for Chiefs being Ice-weak, I feel bad for weapon attack classes. Now, Arch Mages can screw them over even at Time Temple.

[IllegallySane]

I've played on ToT maps using an AM before; You don't hit nearly everything on the map. You hit two platforms, three if you're lucky, and the mobs are rarely larger than 7 or 8. If ToT were amazing for ult spamming, then you'd see a hell of a lot more F/Ps at regret maps.


And as I said, look at oblivion 5. It has 4 levels all across the map, creating a much better area for ultimate spamming. AMs and WA classes may very well not even interact. Edit: Ah, i see what you're saying about oblivion 5.

One hitting 7-8 mobs will still piss off all non-mage classes that train there. It doesn't have to be 15. As long as you can nuke them to Oblivion before we get a chance to even touch one, you have already won the map.

[Kabanaw]

One hitting 7-8 mobs will still piss off all non-mage classes that train there. It doesn't have to be 15. As long as you can nuke them before we get a chance to even touch one, you have already won the map.

But by the time they're done there, you could have easily moved on to another area and quicky done at least some damage to a group of mobs. Besides, that was only half my point; Because this map is ill-suited for ultimate spamming, AMs won't train here.

[Dual]

I've played on ToT maps using an AM before; You don't hit nearly everything on the map. You hit two platforms, three if you're lucky, and the mobs are rarely larger than 7 or 8. If ToT were amazing for ult spamming, then you'd see a hell of a lot more F/Ps at regret maps.


And as I said, look at oblivion 5. It has 4 levels all across the map, creating a much better area for ultimate spamming. AMs and WA classes may very well not even interact. Edit: Ah, i see what you're saying about oblivion 5.

The issue is that Regret monsters have exp comparable to Skeles, for like, 15k more HP. It's barely a trade off. O4 has much more exp per monster comparably. And you can EASILY hit 2 floors with an ultimate. I hit two all the time with my Paladin. You need to just be standing on a step.

However, I do agree that the fact that you cannot stand in one place and spam will reduce the number of Mages that come here. Only really hardcore ones will try it.

[CrimsonJohnny]

One hitting 7-8 mobs will still piss off all non-mage classes that train there. It doesn't have to be 15. As long as you can nuke them to Oblivion before we get a chance to even touch one, you have already won the map.

Maybe I'm forgetting how much damage mages do, but is it really that easy to hit 141k damage (HP of a Chief), even with amp/ultimate buffs/ice weak? My 14x I/L was barely pushing 80ks on ice weaks with a ewand and half decent gear. If they're only 2hitting, I doubt they'd leave Skeles unless they wanted PoTs or a change of atmosphere.

[Kabanaw]

Yes, but the mobs are not nearly comparable to skeles. And fun fact: By the time you can 1HKO these guys, you can 1HKO skeles. If you kill a mob of 10 skeles, you'll get about 45k exp. If you kill a mob of 8 gaurdians, you get between 48 and 56k exp.
However, a mob that large of skeles is more common than a mob that large at ToT. My point is, Skeles are better exp than gaurdians because the mobs are more reliable and there's less movement.

[IllegallySane]

Yes, but the mobs are not nearly comparable to skeles. And fun fact: By the time you can 1HKO these guys, you can 1HKO skeles. If you kill a mob of 10 skeles, you'll get about 45k exp. If you kill a mob of 8 gaurdians, you get between 48 and 56k exp.
However, a mob that large of skeles is more common than a mob that large at ToT. My point is, Skeles are better exp than gaurdians because the mobs are more reliable and there's less movement.

Hmm really? Let's see: To one-shot Guardians, the I/L AM needs to reliably deal ~94,000 damage on neutral. This is without factoring magic defense, so maybe around 95-97k. Wow you're right. Even with the new Blizzard we will probably only be seeing 18x AMs there. I hope you're right though about AMs not being there, because I am no idea how much MA it will take to achieve 100% 94,000 Blizzards, and how easy/hard it will be to gain the equipment needed to deal this type of damage.

[Bomber]

Yes, but the mobs are not nearly comparable to skeles. And fun fact: By the time you can 1HKO these guys, you can 1HKO skeles. If you kill a mob of 10 skeles, you'll get about 45k exp. If you kill a mob of 8 gaurdians, you get between 48 and 56k exp.
However, a mob that large of skeles is more common than a mob that large at ToT. My point is, Skeles are better exp than gaurdians because the mobs are more reliable and there's less movement.
Bolded is a good thing?

[Dual]

Oh, I completely forgot about how much the magic formula sucks. You're right, the increase in the ultimates won't give them enough damage to 1h. So most AMs won't go there, except for a few people who feel like being dicks. Sorry for making this whole huge arguement. xD

[Kabanaw]

Hmm really? Let's see: To one-shot Guardians, the I/L AM needs to reliably deal 95,566 damage on neutral. This is without factoring magic defense, so maybe around 97-98k. Wow you're right. Even with the new Blizzard we will probably only be seeing 18x AMs there. I hope you're right though about AMs not being there, because I am no idea how much MA it will take to achieve 100% 95,566 Blizzards.

More than hitting 85k reliably, I'm pretty sure.

And Scanians will be seeing me around Gaurdians. I'd rather train at more interesting maps with more interesting skills, with a larger prophit to boot. I'm going to first max CL, then work on blizz and MW. I won't even have to pay for blizz 20 if i find it. :f2:


Bolded is a good thing?

Well, not for me, I find it boring. But for the AMs that leeched their way from 60-130, yeah, they like it. And while more boring, less movement means less time between killing.

[IllegallySane]

Oh, I completely forgot about how much the magic formula sucks. You're right, the increase in the ultimates won't give them enough damage to 1h. So most AMs won't go there, except for a few people who feel like being dicks. Sorry for making this whole huge arguement. xD

Same here. I saw a Bellocan I/L AM scream for joy for Ice-weak Oblivion Guardians, and went into panic mode. :ohno: Of course I have no idea how strong he is so he may just be prematurely jumping for joy.

[Bomber]

Oh, I completely forgot about how much the magic formula sucks. You're right, the increase in the ultimates won't give them enough damage to 1h. So most AMs won't go there, except for a few people who feel like being dicks. Sorry for making this whole huge arguement. xD

But it was fun....:f4:

[Dual]

Same here. I saw a Bellocan I/L AM scream for joy for Ice-weak Oblivion Guardians, and went into panic mode. :ohno: Of course I have no idea how strong he is so he may just be prematurely jumping for joy.

The person above you says hi.

[Kabanaw]

The person above you says hi.

The good thing is I'm not a KSer, plus part of a minority of AMs that doesn't really like using Ultimates.

[Bomber]

The person above you says hi.

He's scanian.

[IllegallySane]

More than hitting 85k reliably, I'm pretty sure.


Well dur. But the point is how much funding will that take? Can your average I/L AM shmo be able to hit that high, or will only those people in Zakum/Sauna Robe/E-Wand whatever is Ice/Yellow SS/PuAC/HT Pendant/YWG/Black Belt/INT Coon Mask/Chaosed Glasses/whatever else I'm missing, hit that high?

[Kabanaw]

Well dur. But the point is how much funding will that take? Can your average I/L AM shmo be able to hit that high, or will only those people in Zakum/Sauna Robe/E-Wand whatever is Ice/Yellow SS/PuAC/HT Pendant/YWG/Black Belt/INT Coon Mask/Chaosed Glasses/whatever else I'm missing, hit that high?

Well I'm sure some could, but the ones that can are too busy leeching noobs at newts and skeles to go to ToT.

[IllegallySane]

Well I'm sure some could, but the ones that can are too busy leeching noobs at newts and skeles to go to ToT.

Mages still leech people? :f6:

Oh wait it's Scania, so the noob population is higher. I barely see leech sellers as it is in Bellocan so I will be expecting I/L AMs to invade Time Temple since their leech money is gone so they will hijack Oblivion Maps as their source of income now.

*Not saying they will be KSing me out during 2x times, but I'm sure I'll see some I/L AMs in Time Temple more regularly after this balance patch hits gMS.

[Rick]

Good God, you guys are still saying 'invade' and 'hijack' like they don't have the same right to be there as you do. I also think you're over-estimating even the Scanian high level I/L Arch Mage population. Also, the top of Oblivion 4 is quite good for spamming, the bottom is not, ever thought maybe we could SHARE???

[IllegallySane]

Good God, you guys are still saying 'invade' and 'hijack' like they don't have the same right to be there as you do. I also think you're over-estimating even the Scanian high level I/L Arch Mage population. Also, the top of Oblivion 4 is quite good for spamming, the bottom is not, ever thought maybe we could SHARE???

My personal excuse is Murphy's Law always seem to plague me in the form of a cursed drop rate for me whenever someone else parties me, in which they get noticeably drops than I do. It may not be logical to think so, but that is the case with me, and it gets worse when I'm competing for kills on a map (in my Scanian days) and more often than not I'd see rare drops pop out in front of me, dangling in front of my face just so I can see someone else pick it up.

*Nooooooow given the fact Oblivion Guardians drop Time Pieces, which are valuable little pieces of crack, it just gets silly for me from there. I only party if to help out somebody or at boss runs.

[Schrono]

Hmm really? Let's see: To one-shot Guardians, the I/L AM needs to reliably deal ~94,000 damage on neutral. This is without factoring magic defense, so maybe around 95-97k. Wow you're right. Even with the new Blizzard we will probably only be seeing 18x AMs there. I hope you're right though about AMs not being there, because I am no idea how much MA it will take to achieve 100% 94,000 Blizzards, and how easy/hard it will be to gain the equipment needed to deal this type of damage.

I'm going to guess over 1360 magic to 1-hit with an ice wand or staff. The soonest you'd see that is probably high 160s, low 170s if the person has mw 30, luckless and extremely good gear. More realistically you'd see it in the 18x-19x region.

[Hazzy]

What am I doing wrong?

I did:
http://mathurl.com/ye5ppkx.png

Chief Guardians have 141k HP? So that means approxmately a min of 141,000 damage with element and wand bonuses. What's the wand? 35% boost?
That would mean a raw range of 69629 (141k divided by 1.5*1.35)

Ignore INT/200 since that won't be more than 5 or 6, even on ultra rich mages and simplify...?

http://mathurl.com/ycdut6v.png

What's Blizzard's Spell attack? 570 * 1.4 with AMP? comes to 798

Got this quadratic
http://mathurl.com/y8ufd4j.png

And used an online solver to get around 480 Magic.... o_o I'm pretty sure that's off....

[IllegallySane]

That can't be right. I remembered my old 4x I/L Wizard having ~200-250 MA and dealing only ~500-600 per Thunderbolt.

[2147483647]

You need 1285 magic attack to 1HKO at Oblivion 5 with the KMS changes. That's even fewer than it takes to 1hko Skeles today.

[JoeTang]

Magic²/1000

[IllegallySane]

The bonus for an Ice Elemental Wand is +25%, not 35% Hazzy.


You need 1285 magic attack to 1HKO at Regrets 5 with the KMS changes. That's even fewer than it takes to 1hko Skeles today.

Regrets? Are you talking about F/P AMs then, or you mean to say Oblivion 5?

[2147483647]

Oops yea I meant oblivion. You need way less for regrets.

[FrozNlite]

My personal excuse is Murphy's Law always seem to plague me in the form of a cursed drop rate for me whenever someone else parties me, in which they get noticeably drops than I do. It may not be logical to think so, but that is the case with me, and it gets worse when I'm competing for kills on a map (in my Scanian days) and more often than not I'd see rare drops pop out in front of me, dangling in front of my face just so I can see someone else pick it up.

*Nooooooow given the fact Oblivion Guardians drop Time Pieces, which are valuable little pieces of crack, it just gets silly for me from there. I only party if to help out somebody or at boss runs.

Whoa. So you're saying you won't party train with people because they'll get better drops than you? All I'm hearing is whining about losing your map or your drops. Jesus christ.

@ the whole magic to ohko thing: You most likely won't see any I/L under 150 at Oblivion 4 or 5, and even then, this whole issue is all speculation. Unless someone wants to give Goals a Sswiss Cheese and have him calculate EXP/hr at the maps to see if it's actually better than Skeles, don't get your undies in a tizzy. Skeles may still reign supreme by a few EXP/hr, meaning you'll all have nothing to worry about.

[KaidaTan]

@ the whole magic to ohko thing: You most likely won't see any I/L under 150 at Oblivion 4 or 5, and even then, this whole issue is all speculation. Unless someone wants to give Goals a Sswiss Cheese and have him calculate EXP/hr at the maps to see if it's actually better than Skeles, don't get your undies in a tizzy. Skeles may still reign supreme by a few EXP/hr, meaning you'll all have nothing to worry about.
I don't know about you, but I would gladly take a slightly smaller %/hour if it means I can find loads of Time Pieces.

[Sarah]

Whoa. So you're saying you won't party train with people because they'll get better drops than you? All I'm hearing is whining about losing your map or your drops. Jesus christ.

What other reason is there to whine? I think those are both very legitimate reasons. What's the point in playing if you're not getting anything out of it.

Honestly, one of the main reasons I prefer to play alone is because I'm fairly selfish and it ticks me off when the person I'm with gets something I want/could use. Of course I don't take it out on them in any way, but it brings me down for sure, and I think that's all IllegallySane is saying about that, and it's a perfectly logical reason.

Training with partners should always be optional; you shouldn't be forced to share a map. Nexon needs to take that into account when making any decent training place by creating mini-dungeons, of course. At the same time, anyone who chooses to train alone should know better than to go to the over-populated areas (for example, I chose to train at Brextons from 90 - 102 on my Aran because Gallopera was consistently full and I don't want to deal with douches). But if an area you've used for a long time suddenly becomes ridiculously popular due to a change that is out of their control then yeah, they absolutely have the right to complain.

[Kalovale]

But if an area you've used for a long time suddenly becomes ridiculously popular due to a change that is out of their control then yeah, they absolutely have the right to complain.
Basically this. Melee classes got sick of having to rely on ult spammers to gain their EXP and the drama attached with it, some chose to move to ToT to train peacefully, myself included. At 147, I'm sure I can gain 1.5x times more exp with an ultspammer and hs at Skele than Soloing Regret 5. And I plan to stay at ToT for as long as I care to train.

As for sharing a map, it is okay, Rick, but the mob count is significantly worse, thus less PoT chances. I'm not sure about EXP since I didn't time exactly but it seemed to have been at least the same as soloing the entire map.
And PoT price drop is a downside too. Hell, I just spent 2 weeks at O4 to make my Reverse Spear, now everyone and their mom is going to have several. No, I'm not going to upgrade so I'll just sit in the corner and QQ.

At least Mages can have a new source of income since their beloved leech was taken away, oh poor Bishops.

[2147483647]

My personal excuse is Murphy's Law always seem to plague me in the form of a cursed drop rate for me whenever someone else parties me, in which they get noticeably drops than I do. It may not be logical to think so, but that is the case with me, and it gets worse when I'm competing for kills on a map (in my Scanian days) and more often than not I'd see rare drops pop out in front of me, dangling in front of my face just so I can see someone else pick it up.
hahaohwow.jpg Is Nexon's greed is getting to you? All you're concerned about is with your own personal gain. I certainly hope you are not like this irl.

Anyhoo, Drops are person specific. Drops originate from whoever did the most damage. There's a reason that in HT, the strongest attacker uses 2x drop and kills the last 3% of the last arm. If you saw a rare drop and someone else was able to pick it up, it just means you were there at the time that the person was meant to get the drop, nothing more. Even if you weren't there, he'd still get the drop.

[Magatia]

hahaohwow.jpg Is Nexon's greed is getting to you? All you're concerned about is with your own personal gain. I certainly hope you are not like this irl.

Anyhoo, Drops are person specific. Drops originate from whoever did the most damage. There's a reason that in HT, the strongest attacker uses 2x drop and kills the last 3% of the last arm. If you saw a rare drop and someone else was able to pick it up, it just means you were there at the time that the person was meant to get the drop, nothing more. Even if you weren't there, he'd still get the drop.

And I highly doubt you're not inclined to things concerning with your own personal gain.

[Tikey]

I've played on ToT maps using an AM before; You don't hit nearly everything on the map. You hit two platforms, three if you're lucky, and the mobs are rarely larger than 7 or 8. If ToT were amazing for ult spamming, then you'd see a hell of a lot more F/Ps at regret maps.


And as I said, look at oblivion 5. It has 4 levels all across the map, creating a much better area for ultimate spamming. AMs and WA classes may very well not even interact. Edit: Ah, i see what you're saying about oblivion 5.

The only reason why you don't see FPs at Regret maps is because FPs are just rare. Regrets 4 is actually an ult spamming map since Meteor is able to hit 3 platforms on the top right and it's pretty small for a ToT map, easy to get 10-15 mobs.

[Rick]

No, that's wrong. The reason you don't see many at Regret maps is because Skelegons is still better experience, according to my F/P friend who constantly trains at Regrets 4 (where he one shots, as opposed to 2 shotting at Skelegons, yet the experience is still worse).

[Taiketo]

Because regrets give a lot less exp than obs... comparable to skeles..

This kinda makes me sad.

Huge paladin updates, but instead of going somewhere new, or rather, staying where I already train with much more damage, I get to go BACK TO SKELES..

There is absolutely no way any non-mage class will ever get a map now. Remember skeles pre minidungeon?

[Rick]

You know guys, there are Magicians who WILL leave you alone. You're acting like we're all KSing bastards.

[Taiketo]

And for the one mage that doesn't KS you there are a dozen others that will within 5 minutes.

[Rick]

You're obviously not going to let up on your hate for Arch Mages, so just go and train and see how many problems you have.

[FrozNlite]

I don't know about you, but I would gladly take a slightly smaller %/hour if it means I can find loads of Time Pieces.

The question is still how much smaller. If Regrets 4 pumped out Time Pieces like Oblivion 4 and 5 do, would you start seeing more LOLFPs there? Not really, because the solo EXP/hr rate at Regrets 4 for 100% ohkoing is 32m EXP/hr on 2x, as compared to the 45-48m EXP/hr some ArchMages can pull soloing Skeles on 2x. That's a massively stark difference, enough to keep LOLFPs at Skeles. Now the difference should be much smaller between Oblivion 5 and The Restoring Memory due to major EXP differences between mobs, but even still, if Skeles are faster for experience people may usually choose to stay there. While many enjoy the benefits of good drops or "making money while they train," to some, myself included, the whole goal while training is to get the most EXP as fast as possible. That's why leeching is so popular, after all. I mean, using your statement, all 2x players should rather choose to train at the Ant Tunnel mini dungeon, and 3x players at the Drumming Bunny mini dungeon, so they can hopefully get Chaos Scrolls.

And what do I see? The same amount of 3x players leeching Bigfoot and Anego. I don't know about you, but I have a life, and like many adhere to the mantra that time = money in many instances throughout life. If I'm on a 2x EXP card for 4 hours, I'm going to make sure that by the end of that card I haven't lost out on any EXP by training in a subpar map that would require me to buy another card and sit on my ass for another 4 hours to equal the EXP I could have gotten elsewhere.


What other reason is there to whine? I think those are both very legitimate reasons. What's the point in playing if you're not getting anything out of it.

Honestly, one of the main reasons I prefer to play alone is because I'm fairly selfish and it ticks me off when the person I'm with gets something I want/could use. Of course I don't take it out on them in any way, but it brings me down for sure, and I think that's all IllegallySane is saying about that, and it's a perfectly logical reason.

Training with partners should always be optional; you shouldn't be forced to share a map. Nexon needs to take that into account when making any decent training place by creating mini-dungeons, of course. At the same time, anyone who chooses to train alone should know better than to go to the over-populated areas (for example, I chose to train at Brextons from 90 - 102 on my Aran because Gallopera was consistently full and I don't want to deal with douches). But if an area you've used for a long time suddenly becomes ridiculously popular due to a change that is out of their control then yeah, they absolutely have the right to complain.

Well, at least you're bluntly honest about being selfish o.o.

You're never forced to share a map. The idea of the game is that if you want something bad enough, you'll do what you need to get it. If you want to train at Oblivion maps bad enough, you'll party I/L ArchMages to stay there. If you want the best EXP/hr in the game, you'll leech your way up to 4th job. Nexon is not saying you can't play the game alone if you want to, but they are saying you can't do/get all the best things by playing alone. If you're going to complain for Nexon to make you godly EXP/hr maps for solo training a non-Magician class because you don't like playing with other people, they'll say tough luck, this is an MMO. What, you want them to make it so you can solo HT now too because you want an HTP on your Aran but don't want to deal with douche squads?

[IllegallySane]

Whoa. So you're saying you won't party train with people because they'll get better drops than you?


No. I don't party with people at Oblivion 4 because there ARE no people to party with. Everyone is either at Skeles or not training. Playing at 7-11 PST doesn't really give me a lot of people to train with. Murphy's Law hating me with a passion whenever I party with people is simply icing on that lonesome cake. It also doesn't help that the few times I tried to find an ultimate spammer to party with at Skeles, they demanded I pay for their pot costs. :f7:


hahaohwow.jpg Is Nexon's greed is getting to you? All you're concerned about is with your own personal gain. I certainly hope you are not like this irl.



So all AMs/Bishops that sell leech do so from the goodness of their heart?

Yes, because regularly donating to charities and to non-profit organizations help my personal gain. So does the fact I shelled out a good couple hundred bucks this month on Christmas presents for friends. Yup, lots of personal gain from that. /sarcasm

I don't merchant nor do I scroll and I don't have the time to regularly be on boss runs, so Time Temple is the only place I can earn my money. I am also relying on those Time Pieces to fund me so I can play without buying NX with real money. Yeah, personal gain right there for spending my hard earned mesos to get NX instead of just buying it with real money, because working harder istead of smarter is the way to go!

As far as I know, Dragon Scales/Spirits are actually harder to find than Time Pieces kill for kill; it's just there weren't regular ultimate spammers there to deflate the Time Piece prices.

[Kawasari Mimoto22]

Partying is completely optional in-game. However, if you're on a map, sometimes, just give the other person the 'benefit-of-the-doubt' and let them have a portion of the map. Hell, it might speed things up. If you're not even using the other portion of the map, hell, let them have it. Won't hurt. Unless they spam ults and it hits your monsters and KSes you in the process. If you're in a regular map, of course, expect people to 'ask' if they can have a portion of the map. You don't have to say 'yes' at all, it's up to the player, but put yourself in their shoes.

Of course, when I don't feel like partying at all, I go into a private-map for myself and just grind away.

[Stereo]

How does 1hkoing help? If I remember right, most maps have respawn times in the 8-10 second range anyway, and even fast maps like the Skele minidungeon around 5 seconds. If you're really just sitting in one spot, then half the time you cast ultimate, half the time you wait for stuff to respawn.

Blizzard freezes, if you 2hko they're not going anywhere. And hitting over 70.5k per Blizzard with all the elemental boosts is not that tough. If it takes 1300 magic to 1hko,I can see level 130s being able to get the magic to 2hko (obviously they'd want to have high level Blizzard too)

Just a question about ultimates... can you jump cast them? When I'm using HH on the "main" floors of Oblivion, I jump so it hits the platform above me. If I didn't, I'd have to stand on the stairs. Then again, from the next platform upward I can just sit and cast and it hits the platform below, so maybe AMs would end up there since they can 1hko, which HH will never do.


Do we think Paladin updates are over the top yet?
Current max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 22000 with ACB, translating to 6m exp/hour
New max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 65000 with ACB

[Kawasari Mimoto22]

I heard you can jump-cast ults now. I haven't played my Bishop yet, so idk. But I suppose so.

[2147483647]

And I highly doubt you're not inclined to things concerning with your own personal gain.
Everything concerns such. It's just that when you reach his degree of jealousy and rage, you're doing it wrong.


Yes, because regularly donating to charities and to non-profit organizations help my personal gain. So does the fact I shelled out a good couple hundred bucks this month on Christmas presents for friends. Yup, lots of personal gain from that. /sarcasm
By personal gain, I didn't mean that you have to be completely philanthropist, but at least you shouldn't let your jealousy consume you to the point you're not willing to train with anyone for fear you'd see them getting the "good drops". You should be happy if you're trainnig with a friend and you see him get a good drop. >_>

[TamilTiger1]

Just a question about ultimates... can you jump cast them? When I'm using HH on the "main" floors of Oblivion, I jump so it hits the platform above me. If I didn't, I'd have to stand on the stairs. Then again, from the next platform upward I can just sit and cast and it hits the platform below, so maybe AMs would end up there since they can 1hko, which HH will never do.


This was possible for a very long time, possibly from the beginning. I think people just didn't use it because its hard to do using Ultimate key alone without putting it in macro. Its very simple when you add the ultimate into a macro (just need to put it in once) and jump atk, you can do it 100% of the time. Without macro you'll have to do it at a perfect time, i've tried this way but its not worth that much effort to hit a few extra monsters. This is how you hit bottom 3 platforms of skele mini dungeon :D

[Shidoshi]

If what you are suggesting is just jump casting, like what archers do, then it would make no difference in the range of the skill.
It would count as if you cast it from the ground where you were.

[Dual]

The main reason why you dont see F/P at Oblvion 4, despite the map being perfect for Ultimates, is because the monsters give less EXP than Skeles. However, CoG give 7k EXP to a Skele's 4.5k.

I have an arguement about this happening, but there is no way for me to actually put it out without having Archmages coming after me. There are MANY reasons why an I/L AM would want to go to O4 (PoT profit now that leeching is less used, KSing, a change from the neverending Skele minidungeon, more usage of skills instead of just spamming, ect.) but bringing up anything about the fact that the one place a melee class could train the best in the game is now availible to Archmages, the classes that cannot be beaten in terms of speed, and already kill effectively everywhere else.

[Bomber]

How does 1hkoing help? If I remember right, most maps have respawn times in the 8-10 second range anyway, and even fast maps like the Skele minidungeon around 5 seconds. If you're really just sitting in one spot, then half the time you cast ultimate, half the time you wait for stuff to respawn.

Blizzard freezes, if you 2hko they're not going anywhere. And hitting over 70.5k per Blizzard with all the elemental boosts is not that tough. If it takes 1300 magic to 1hko,I can see level 130s being able to get the magic to 2hko (obviously they'd want to have high level Blizzard too)

Just a question about ultimates... can you jump cast them? When I'm using HH on the "main" floors of Oblivion, I jump so it hits the platform above me. If I didn't, I'd have to stand on the stairs. Then again, from the next platform upward I can just sit and cast and it hits the platform below, so maybe AMs would end up there since they can 1hko, which HH will never do.


Do we think Paladin updates are over the top yet?
Current max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 22000 with ACB, translating to 6m exp/hour
New max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 65000 with ACB

Fu'ck! Ima be doing of 70ks xD

[TamilTiger1]

If what you are suggesting is just jump casting, like what archers do, then it would make no difference in the range of the skill.
It would count as if you cast it from the ground where you were.

You can see the difference if you try yourself. Looks like you only have about 4 more levels to go :D
In the skele mini dungeon, you can't reach 2nd platform from top when you cast ultimates from the platform below that unless you jump cast. Jump casting allows you to reach all 3 platforms at same time. Archer jump cast is a bit different, i've used that before too. The arrows goes as if you shot from ground even though the character is jumping over the arrow.

I havn't read up everything on this argument about ToT. But if melee characters get both best exp and money out of the same place at the same time shouldn't mages get the same benefit? Why should only mages have to hunt and train separately? thats spending twice the time as anyone else.

[Dual]

I havn't read up everything on this argument about ToT. But if melee characters get both best exp and money out of the same place at the same time shouldn't mages get the same benefit? Why should only mages have to hunt and train separately? thats spending twice the time as anyone else.

Melee classes get the best exp for melee classes at O4. Mages get far more exp than that by just standing in skeles spamming ultimates.

[Lozmaster]

Melee classes get the best exp for melee classes at O4. Mages get far more exp than that by just standing in skeles spamming ultimates.

I get more soloing on my BM at oblivion 4 than at skeles/newts as well

[Hazzy]

Magic²/1000

Oh... *facepalm*
In that case, my math says 1600 mAtk would be needed to 1hKO Chief Oblivions. Bit of an over estimate though, since I ignored INT.
Still not for the low leveled.... <3

[dpeterlin]

Oh... *facepalm*
In that case, my math says 1600 mAtk would be needed to 1hKO Chief Oblivions. Bit of an over estimate though, since I ignored INT.
Still not for the low leveled.... <3

I think someone was closer with 1300

Currently 1300 is the magic number for skeles--- gives you 85k min
for 140k with an ele advantage youd need to hit 93k on a neutral --

with a better amp and blizz that 8k should come on its own -- dont really wanna run the numbers but I'd say anyone 1 hitting skeles now will 1 hit CoGs once the update comes -- and if not it'll be a matter of a only a few more magic --

[MysticHLE]

How does 1hkoing help? If I remember right, most maps have respawn times in the 8-10 second range anyway, and even fast maps like the Skele minidungeon around 5 seconds. If you're really just sitting in one spot, then half the time you cast ultimate, half the time you wait for stuff to respawn.

Blizzard freezes, if you 2hko they're not going anywhere. And hitting over 70.5k per Blizzard with all the elemental boosts is not that tough. If it takes 1300 magic to 1hko,I can see level 130s being able to get the magic to 2hko (obviously they'd want to have high level Blizzard too)

Just a question about ultimates... can you jump cast them? When I'm using HH on the "main" floors of Oblivion, I jump so it hits the platform above me. If I didn't, I'd have to stand on the stairs. Then again, from the next platform upward I can just sit and cast and it hits the platform below, so maybe AMs would end up there since they can 1hko, which HH will never do.


Do we think Paladin updates are over the top yet?
Current max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 22000 with ACB, translating to 6m exp/hour
New max damage, Oblivion Guardians: 65000 with ACB

Yay 92k ACB! xD 2 hit KOing up to (rushed) mobs of 6...now that makes me feel that I'm on par with AMs using ults there. >=D

EDIT: Dang it, based on some new calculations and videos on the latest official KMS...it seems that the updates are actually not that over the top as we thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jr3sb_rsb4

Quoted by Van from SW.net...it seems that the current formula for Paladins is as follows:

1) Charges will be multiplicative at their normal bases. (1.5 Holy * 1.25 Lightning)

2) Only 1 Elemental Advantage is calculated. (You won't get a double elemental advantage bonus with Fire and Lightning at Regret mobs even though they share both weaknesses)

3) Elemental Advantage seems to be lowered to 125%. (Instead of the 1.5x modifier, this becomes 1.25x)

4) Dual Charging overall increases damage for all Pally skills and situations. It essentially gives up some of a Pally's elemental advantage for more damage on neutral mobs.

Guess Anegos still belong to BMs. :f3:

[Kalovale]

If what you are suggesting is just jump casting, like what archers do, then it would make no difference in the range of the skill.
It would count as if you cast it from the ground where you were.


This was possible for a very long time, possibly from the beginning. I think people just didn't use it because its hard to do using Ultimate key alone without putting it in macro. Its very simple when you add the ultimate into a macro (just need to put it in once) and jump atk, you can do it 100% of the time. Without macro you'll have to do it at a perfect time, i've tried this way but its not worth that much effort to hit a few extra monsters. This is how you hit bottom 3 platforms of skele mini dungeon :D

I believe this buddy implies the macro's property of "register and cast immediately when possible."
If you played a Warrior, you'll notice that Rush does not register when in mid-air, but a macro'ed Rush does, hence you slide away as soon as you touch the ground. Same for Combat Step, really helpful when paired with the sliding motion + non-directional jumps.
So I'm assuming jump-ult means registering the ultimate when in mid-air (thus able to hit both plats) but the animation gets cast upon landing.

[IllegallySane]

Yay 92k ACB! xD 2 hit KOing up to (rushed) mobs of 6...now that makes me feel that I'm on par with AMs using ults there. >=D

EDIT: Dang it, based on some new calculations and videos on the latest official KMS...it seems that the updates are actually not that over the top as we thought.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Jr3sb_rsb4

Quoted by Van from SW.net...it seems that the current formula for Paladins is as follows:

1) Charges will be multiplicative at their normal bases. (1.5 Holy * 1.25 Lightning)

2) Only 1 Elemental Advantage is calculated. (You won't get a double elemental advantage bonus with Fire and Lightning at Regret mobs even though they share both weaknesses)

3) Elemental Advantage seems to be lowered to 125%. (Instead of the 1.5x modifier, this becomes 1.25x)

4) Dual Charging overall increases damage for all Pally skills and situations. It essentially gives up some of a Pally's elemental advantage for more damage on neutral mobs.

Guess Anegos still belong to BMs. :f3:

But again. What this DOES mean for Paladins is that they are way stronger on neutral mobs, but because there is only a 25% elemental boost, it means they are not so reliant on elemental advantages in order to maximize damage. Of course, 1,359% damage per Blast at Anego (comapared to previously 1155%) is still nothing to scoff at. Mixed blessings, or finally made Paladins where they belong, using elementals to attack enemies (stronger fighting neutral mobs), but aren't screwed like AMs/Bishops when the enemy is strong to one element (that's where the 25% elemental advantage boost comes in. Paladin's damage is far more stable in the range it can vary than it was before)? Of course, I wouldn't mind a duo weakness boost, so either way it works in favor of the Paladin.

Note of course Heroes Brandish does 988% per target in the time it takes to do a single Blast. 1,015%~1087.5% Blasts > 988% Brandishes. If there is ever even one single elemental weakness on the boss, it's game over for the Hero for sure. The only way Heroes can beat Paladins now is if there's a boss that hates both Holy and Fire so they are forced to use Ice + Lightning Charge on a neutral mob (797% Ice/Lit on neutral). Then of course add the fun of ACB. 612%~656% per hit on neutral mobs (compared to 490% before), to 765%~820% on elementally weak (previously 735%) . Again I am calculating with both Fire/Lit and Holy/Lit charges.

[MysticHLE]

But again. What this DOES mean for Paladins is that they are way stronger on neutral mobs, but because there is only a 25% elemental boost, it means they are not so reliant on elemental advantages in order to maximize damage. Of course, 1,359% damage per Blast at Anego (comapared to previously 1155%) is still nothing to scoff at. Mixed blessings, or finally made Paladins where they belong, using elementals to attack enemies (stronger fighting neutral mobs), but aren't screwed like AMs/Bishops when the enemy is strong to one element (that's where the 25% elemental advantage boost comes in. Paladin's damage is far more stable in the range it can vary than it was before)? Of course, I wouldn't mind a duo weakness boost, so either way it works in favor of the Paladin.

Note of course Heroes Brandish does 988% per target in the time it takes to do a single Blast. 1,015%~1087.5% Blasts > 988% Brandishes. If there is ever even one single elemental weakness on the boss, it's game over for the Hero for sure. The only way Heroes can beat Paladins now is if there's a boss that hates both Holy and Fire so they are forced to use Ice + Lightning Charge on a neutral mob (797% Ice/Lit on neutral). Then of course add the fun of ACB. 612%~656% per hit on neutral mobs (compared to 490% before), to 765%~820% on elementally weak (previously 735%) . Again I am calculating with both Fire/Lit and Holy/Lit charges.

Yup, your assessment seems right on the mark. ^_^

I wonder if elemental advantage was changed for AMs then...'cause if it is, I think it would make them actually weaker per ult compared to before - even with the new basic m. atk boosts? o.o

Also, it makes me wonder if elemental resistance was changed as well.

[Lozmaster]

2) Only 1 Elemental Advantage is calculated. (You won't get a double elemental advantage bonus with Fire and Lightning at Regret mobs even though they share both weaknesses)

3) Elemental Advantage seems to be lowered to 125%. (Instead of the 1.5x modifier, this becomes 1.25x)

Woah, ok. In that case, I have another question, if it only counts one element, and its only a half multiplier, then I wonder what happens if the monster is resistant to 2 elements.
From this, since the attack is only half elemental,and can only recieve one elemental boost/penalty I wonder if it'd only recieve a decrease in damage of *0.75 multiplier (similar to inferno, which is only half elemental), seeing as it only gets half the boost now

[TamilTiger1]

Yup, your assessment seems right on the mark. ^_^

I wonder if elemental advantage was changed for AMs then...'cause if it is, I think it would make them actually weaker per ult compared to before - even with the new basic m. atk boosts? o.o

Also, it makes me wonder if elemental resistance was changed as well.

I think the only reason the elemental advantage seems to be 1.25x is probably because of dual charging, kind of like comb arrow of mages in 3rd job but stronger. For archmages it makes no difference because in their 4th job they never use both element at same time.

[Stereo]

2) Only 1 Elemental Advantage is calculated. (You won't get a double elemental advantage bonus with Fire and Lightning at Regret mobs even though they share both weaknesses)

3) Elemental Advantage seems to be lowered to 125%. (Instead of the 1.5x modifier, this becomes 1.25x)

What's the point of even allowing dual charging then?

Fire+Lit weak target, just using Fire: 735%/ACB
Fire+Lit weak target, using Fire+Lightning: 766%/ACB


Wow, we get a 4% damage increase for spending 30 3rd job SP.


The only place this helps is at Lightning targets, because tbh the Lightning multiplier sucks ass now.
Lightning weak target, just using Lightning: 656%/ACB
Lightning weak target, using Holy+Lightning: 820%/ACB (same % for Holy weak targets)
Holy weak target, just using Holy: 788%/ACB



Really this just balances out the Fire/Lightning/Holy charges.
Currently - Ice - 577%. Fire - 630%. Lightning - 656%. Holy - 735%.
Becomes - Ice - 601%. Fire - 766%. Lightning/Holy - 820%.

Instead of a 17% difference in dps from Fire to Holy, there's only a 7% difference. The gap to Ice actually increases, from 27% to 36%.

[Shidoshi]

What's the point of even allowing dual charging then?

Fire+Lit weak target, just using Fire: 735%/ACB
Fire+Lit weak target, using Fire+Lightning: 766%/ACB

Wow, we get a 4% damage increase for spending 30 3rd job SP.

Because on neutrals you got nice boost.

On elemental weak you get either 1.4*1.25*1.25 = 2.1875 (dual charge) OR 1.4*1.5 = 2.1 (single charged) and you have your 4% increase

However on Neutral the increase was 25% which is quite nice

[IllegallySane]

What's the point of even allowing dual charging then?

Fire+Lit weak target, just using Fire: 735%/ACB
Fire+Lit weak target, using Fire+Lightning: 766%/ACB

Wow, we get a 4% damage increase for spending 30 3rd job SP.

You forgot using just Fire ACB before the changes would have only been 630% on fire weak (16~21% boost). I think we should look at the pre-post changes rather than post changes alone.

Also, I think duo charging is just to cover your bases in terms of where you can train, and it's free damage to boot. Heck, WoW players would be estatic over a 4% DPS increase

[Stereo]

You forgot using just Fire ACB before the changes would have only been 630% on fire weak (16~21% boost). I think we should look at the pre-post changes rather than post changes alone.

They could have skipped dual charging entirely, made everything simpler, and I would still get that 630 to 735% boost due to the change in Fire Charge.


I'm so far behind on neutral targets that 25% isn't all that meaningful. I guess now I can beat DKs and Shadowers on neutral targets, as long as I'm using my single target skill and they use their 3-4 target skills.

[Taiketo]

If elements are reduced to 1.25x even when single charging, that's a HUGE nerf for paladins.

Old ACB with old holy : 735%
New ACB with new holy and new element : 656%

I don't want better neutral damage if it means weaker elemental damage.

I think elements are probably 1.5x if you single charge, and it works like comp, but eh.

[Takebacker]

If elements are reduced to 1.25x even when single charging, that's a HUGE nerf for paladins.

Old ACB with old holy : 735%
New ACB with new holy and new element : 656%

I don't want better neutral damage if it means weaker elemental damage.

I think elements are probably 1.5x if you single charge, and it works like comp, but eh.

Thought it was clear that the 1.25x advantage is only when double charging. o.o

[Dual]

I'm done talking about this now. I don't even want to look in any threads about the updates anymore lol.

[Baklava]

Killing bosses isn't the highlight of MS.

[Kleip]

Ya its all about changing the clothes in your online avatar.
/sarcasm

Anyway, Oblivion 4 was the top place for melee soloing. Now we're going to have to deal with Archmage KSers(and there's a lot of KS-loving archmages).
This is very annoying considering there's no mini dungeons there.

[CarrionCrow]

Ya its all about changing the clothes in your online avatar.
/sarcasm


And why would that be anything less than bossing? Geez people presume way to bloody much. For some bossing is the shit, for others it's dressing their avatars. But for the love of fuck, can anybody be so dumb as to deem anything besides thier own petty interests worthless?

[Russt]

Thought it was clear that the 1.25x advantage is only when double charging. o.o

Thought it was clear that it wasn't.

Video evidence shows that dual advantage has nearly the same multiplier as single advantage.

Edit: Also, single advantage dual charge has nearly the same multiplier as single advantage single charge, suggesting that it isn't elemental attribute that is nerfed but the dual charging mechanism itself (which wasn't there before anyway). Therefore, paladin damage isn't nerfed at all; it's just buffed a little less than people hoped.

(To be fair and completely honest, though, my motivation for mentioning this is pretty selfish - I want my theory to be right and not some guy on SW's.)

Have any videos shown neutral Blast damage yet?
We need us some pure DEX paladins on KMST ._.

[Ormykka]

Also you guys noticed from videos when they are dual charging, they got + 40 magic? Dunno if it tells anything but single charge thunder had +40 magic, holy +30, ice +27 and fire +38. Just small noticing.

[Tikey]

Most +stat buffs don't stack. Since he used Thunder Charge last, it came up as +40.