[KMST] [1.2.276] More rebalancing [Archive]

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Fiel

2009-12-29, 03:34 AM

ALWAYS ASSUME MAX LEVEL WITH SKILLS. I will do skill tables later.

Done writing skill changes. This is it.

Hero
Rush - Damage increased by 10%. Range increased by 20 pixels horizontally.

Page
Threaten - MP cost raised slightly. Duration decreased from 120 seconds to 80 seconds. Description changed --> ("[마스터 레벨 : 20]\nMP를 소비하여 일정 시간 동안 적에게 위협을 가한다. 일정 범위 내에 있는 다수의 적에게 일정한 확률로 물리 공격력, 물리 방어력, 명중률을 감소시킨다."). New variables added --> (z = 20, subTime = 20, prop = 50). Threaten is now percentage based according to the skill readout and affects enemy attack, defense, and hit rate.

White Knight
Charged Blow - Range increased to 180 from 150. Stun duration increased from 4 to 6
Fire Charge : Sword - Damage increased to 140% from 120%.
Flame Charge : BW - Damage increased to 140% from 120%.
Lightning Charge : Sword - Can now use in conjunction with other charges
Thunder Charge : BW - Can now use in conjunction with other charges

Paladin
Rush - Damage increased from 130% to 140%. Range increased by 20 pixels horizontally.
Blast - Damage increased from 550% to 580%.
Holy Charge : Sword - Damage increased from 140% to 150%.
Divine Charge : BW - Damage increased from 140% to 150%.

Dark Knight
Rush - Damage increased from 130% to 140%. Range increased by 20 pixels horizontally.

F/P Mage (II)
Fire Arrow - Levels 1 - 5 now hits 1 mob instead of 2. Now shows different animations for when you hit levels 40 and 50.

F/P Mage (IV)
Meteo - MP cost reduced from 3500 to 2900.

I/L Mage (IV)
Blizzard - MP cost reduced from 3500 to 2900.

Bandit
Steal - Changed to be an AoE mob move. Damage increased from 100% to 130%. Hits 4 mobs with range (lt.x -250, lt.y -63, rb.x 0, rb.y 0). Skill now stuns for 4 seconds. Description changed --> ("[마스터 레벨 : 30]\n다수의 적을 빠르게 공격하고 일정 확률로 적이 소지하고 있는 아이템 중 하나를 훔쳐낸다. 하나의 적에게 한 번만 훔칠 수 있으며 성공할 때까지 계속 시도할 수 있다.\n필요 스킬 : #c헤이스트 5레벨 이상#")

Concerning Steal, it looks like Nexon Korea wanted the move from Bandit to Chief Bandit to make more sense. Look at how they changed the skill design:

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/skill.4201004.effect0.0.png
http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/skill.4201004.effect0.1.png
http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/skill.4201004.effect0.2.png
http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/skill.4201004.effect0.3.png
http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/skill.4201004.effect0.4.png
http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/skill.4201004.effect0.5.png

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01132017.png
빨간색 복대
Belt - All classes
Required Level: 20
Weapon Attack: +2
STR: +2
DEX: +2
WDEF: +50
3 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01132018.png
파란색 복대
Belt - All classes
Required Level: 20
Magic Attack: +2
INT: +2
LUK: +2
MDEF: +50
3 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01132019.png
따뜻한 복대
Belt - All classes
Required Level: 20
Weapon Attack: +2
Magic Attack: +2
STR: +2
DEX: +2
INT: +2
LUK: +2
MDEF: +50
WDEF: +50
3 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492053.png
콜드마인드
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 20
Required STR: 20
Required DEX: 35
Weapon Attack: +41
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492054.png
라스펠트건
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 35
Required STR: 35
Required DEX: 90
Weapon Attack: +59
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492055.png
버닝헬
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 50
Required STR: 50
Required DEX: 140
Weapon Attack: +68
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492056.png
어비스 슈터
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 60
Required STR: 60
Required DEX: 175
Weapon Attack: +72
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492057.png
인피티니
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 70
Required STR: 70
Required DEX: 210
Weapon Attack: +76
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492058.png
콜드마인드
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 20
Required STR: 20
Required DEX: 35
Weapon Attack: +41
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492059.png
라스펠트건
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 35
Required STR: 35
Required DEX: 90
Weapon Attack: +59
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492060.png
버닝헬
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 50
Required STR: 50
Required DEX: 140
Weapon Attack: +68
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492061.png
어비스 슈터
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 60
Required STR: 60
Required DEX: 175
Weapon Attack: +72
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01492062.png
인피티니
Gun - Pirates only
Required Level: 70
Required STR: 70
Required DEX: 210
Weapon Attack: +76
DEX: +2
Accuracy: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482053.png
프라임 핸즈
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 20
Required STR: 30
Required DEX: 20
Weapon Attack: +44
STR: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482054.png
데빌클로
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 35
Required STR: 75
Required DEX: 35
Weapon Attack: +60
STR: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482055.png
세라핌즈
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 50
Required STR: 120
Required DEX: 50
Weapon Attack: +68
STR: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482056.png
베이아 크래쉬
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 60
Required STR: 150
Required DEX: 60
Weapon Attack: +72
STR: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482057.png
스틸르노
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 70
Required STR: 180
Required DEX: 70
Weapon Attack: +76
STR: +5
Fast(5)
7 Slots
Tradeblock
Time Limited
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482058.png
프라임 핸즈
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 20
Required STR: 30
Required DEX: 20
Weapon Attack: +44
STR: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482059.png
데빌클로
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 35
Required STR: 75
Required DEX: 35
Weapon Attack: +60
STR: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482060.png
세라핌즈
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 50
Required STR: 120
Required DEX: 50
Weapon Attack: +68
STR: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482061.png
베이아 크래쉬
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 60
Required STR: 150
Required DEX: 60
Weapon Attack: +72
STR: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/01482062.png
스틸르노
Knuckler - Pirates only
Required Level: 70
Required STR: 180
Required DEX: 70
Weapon Attack: +76
STR: +5
Fast(5)
5 Slots
Tradeblock
One-of-a-kind
Cannot resell to merchants

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/02022663.png
따뜻한 겨울상자
겨울을 따뜻하게 지낼 수 있는 선물들이 들어있는 상자이다. 더블클릭해서 열면 내용물을 꺼낼 수 있다.
Tradeblock
Cannot resell to merchants
Reward:
빨간 포션 (15) - 8.33%
주황 포션 (15) - 8.33%
하얀 포션 (10) - 8.33%
파란 포션 (10) - 8.33%
엘릭서 (2) - 8.33%
마나 엘릭서 (2) - 8.33%
민첩함의 물약 (5) - 8.33%
속도향상의 물약 (5) - 8.33%
마법사의 물약 (5) - 8.33%
현자의 물약 (5) - 8.33%
전사의 물약 (5) - 8.33%
명사수의 물약 (5) - 8.33%

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032558.png
빨간 내복
밍밍부인이 마을 사람들을 위해서 만든 빨간 내의다. 착용하면 체감온도가 상승하는 효과를 누릴 수 있다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032559.png
공기처럼 가벼운 솜털
공기보다 가벼운 솜털이다. 너무 가벼워서 공기 중에 떠다니기 때문에 높은 나뭇가지에 걸려있는 것을 채취해서 사용한다. 주로 요정들의 겨울옷 제작에 사용한다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032560.png
불씨가 있는 장작
불씨가 남아 있는 장작이다. 주로 번개를 맞은 다크엑스텀프가 몸 속에서 발견된다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032561.png
핫 팩
추운 겨울 손과 발을 녹여주는 물건이다. 양손으로 비비면 발열작용이 일어나서 따뜻한 열을 발산한다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032562.png
감기약
콧물, 기침, 몸살 등 모든 감기에 특효인 종합감기약이다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032563.png
화염초
개미굴에서 드물게 자라나는 식물이다. 꽃잎부분에서 따뜻한 열기가 뿜어져 나온다. 겨울에도 얼지 않는 식물이다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032564.png
홍차 티백
깊게 우러나는 홍차잎을 작게 포장한 티백이다. 따뜻한 물에 담궈서 우려먹으면 따뜻하고 맛있는 홍차를 음미할 수 있다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032565.png
미지근한 용암
공기중에서 알맞게 식은 용암이다. 따뜻할 정도의 열기가 남아있어서 난방용으로 적당하다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032566.png
펠트 조각
양모를 압축해서 만든 도톰한 원단이다. 다양한 색과 따뜻한 질감으로 다양한 소품을 만들기에 용이하다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032567.png
깔깔이
군용야상점퍼의 내피다. 솜을 대고 누빔처리를 해서 따뜻한 보온효과가 탁월하다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032568.png
누비솜
천 사이에 솜을 넣고 정방형으로 누빔처리를 한 솜이다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032569.png
따뜻한 기포
해저화산에서 올라오는 따뜻한 공기가 담긴 기포다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032570.png
따뜻한 돌
미나르숲에서 발견되는 스스로 열을 내는 신기한 돌이다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032571.png
화염비기
몸에서 열기를 내뿜어서 추위를 견디게 하는 비법이 담겨져 있는 비법서다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032572.png
도라지의 노란 열매
드물게 발견되는 도라지의 열매다. 달여먹거나 환으로 복용하면 체력이 증진되어 추위에 강해진다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032573.png
태양모래
아리안트의 사막에서 발견되는 붉은 모래다. 문지르면 발열작용이 있어나는 신기한 모래로 핫팩의 주원료로 수출된다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032574.png
무쇠
굉장히 단단한 쇳덩이다. 열에 강하고 쉽게 식지 않지 때문에 난방기구의 재료로 사용된다.
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04032575.png
따뜻한 1℃
따뜻한 체온이다.
EXP: 15
Quest Item

---------------

http://www.happychinchilla.info/Southperry/00276/04220154.png
따뜻한 온도계
마음의 온도를 나타내는 온도계다.
Items per slot: 1
EXP: 15
Quest Item
One-of-a-kind
Time Limited

JoeTang

2009-12-29, 03:39 AM

4.7MB - likely a skill changing patch. I'm working on it now...

First. Here's hoping for good times ahead.

Tay

2009-12-29, 03:40 AM

Wonder when they'll start testing the new job planned for release in summer.

Sn1perJohnE

2009-12-29, 04:03 AM

MP cost reduction for Ultimates a-@ LOTS of mages are gonna love that.

MetaSeraphim

2009-12-29, 04:06 AM

Lol @ the changes to Warriors.

Sn1perJohnE

2009-12-29, 04:09 AM

Wait wait wait. Isnt steal the skill that takes any equips or stuff or what ever from the monster and drops em while their still alive? They made THAT into a mob skill?!?! a_@

Tay

2009-12-29, 04:09 AM

Cool, Steal might be useful.

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 04:18 AM

Well, that makes lightning charge even more laughable than it was before. Wonder what the new threaten does...

Sn1perJohnE

2009-12-29, 04:25 AM

...Even more waiting for archer changes and more marauder changes...

MetaSeraphim

2009-12-29, 04:47 AM

...Even more waiting for archer changes and more marauder changes...

More Marauder/Bucc changes? Lol, they already changed them once and they said they weren't going to change them again.

Sn1perJohnE

2009-12-29, 04:56 AM

More Marauder/Bucc changes? Lol, they already changed them once and they said they weren't going to change them again.

And where did they say this......

JoeTang

2009-12-29, 05:30 AM

Looks like Bandits will be all about Steal now. This was unexpected. Hooray for (huge) 2nd job mob skill.

http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/4551/stealv.png

It's got a significantly farther reach than Band of Thieves, it just doesn't hit both sides.
Stunning is an interesting touch, and I guess it's for making Stealing easier since any other skill cancels the Stun.

Now we have a tough choice to drop the newly improved Endure to get some better mob reach, Stun, and STEALAN.

y0y0y0y0shi0

2009-12-29, 05:46 AM

LF>New F/P animation.

I like how Pages get hindered. XD

Fiel

2009-12-29, 05:47 AM

Pages? Hindered? Did you read anything past the second sentence?

y0y0y0y0shi0

2009-12-29, 05:51 AM

Pages? Hindered? Did you read anything past the second sentence?

"Description changed"
I can definitely read Korean. >.>
"New variables added"
I, being code illiterate, also definitely know what those mean.

cleric1213

2009-12-29, 05:52 AM

B>new animations for fire arrow

Fiel

2009-12-29, 05:53 AM

I can't read Korean either. Google Translate looks like it said something that was an improvement. I have no idea what those variables mean either... lemme look at the description.

"MP 15 소비하여 31% 확률로 42 초간 적의 공격력, 방어력 -1%, 4 초간 명중률 -1% "
"MP 15; 31 percent chance of 42 seconds into the enemy's attack, Defense -1% 4 seconds hit rate -1%"

In other words, Pages can now rejoice - it affects enemy defense by a percentage which means moar damage. It affects the enemy's accuracy, defense, and attack. That's huge.

CarrionCrow

2009-12-29, 05:57 AM

Harumph.
Pole arm DrKs will need a lot more than a basically pointless increase in rush damage.
Less MP on ultimates is hardly the way to go unless they throw in a cooldown or dealy too.
Hope they fix the useless skills for all classes and not just the bandits steal.

y0y0y0y0shi0

2009-12-29, 05:59 AM

JoeTang

2009-12-29, 06:00 AM

Fiel

2009-12-29, 06:04 AM

One big step for Pages.

Any idea what subTime is though?

No idea. I also don't know the rationale behind attaching a probability rate to Threaten. I really didn't see that coming.

Tay

2009-12-29, 06:28 AM

Goooooooooood
Steal looks quite lovely.
I'll need to work out a build very soon, Mastery first probably seems the best way to go?

WayOfTime

2009-12-29, 06:37 AM

Mastery first is generally the way any second job goes, with the possible exception of Brawlers and (of course) mages.

Kirov

2009-12-29, 07:23 AM

Threaten is awesome, Steal looks interesting. As for the rest, I’m very disappointed.

Rick

2009-12-29, 07:41 AM

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 07:41 AM

I am also disappoint. The changes to Threaten are borderline broken (-20% to boss accuracy? Yes please), but the rest of it isn't quite enough. Also sad to see no Dark Knight buffs here. Or Archer buffs!

1200 less MP for maxed Blizzard and Meteor is certainly nothing to sniff at, especially with the amp increase. Not sure how much love this gives Paladins, not knowing how effective those increases will be. As for steal, it still sounds pretty useless.
Heroes do 1568% damage/second to 3 targets.
Paladins do 1222% damage/second to 1 target with the old Blast/Holy Charge
Paladins do 1381% damage/second to 1 target with the new Blast/Holy Charge

EDIT: The above values are at weapon speed faster(2)

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 07:48 AM

1200 less MP for maxed Blizzard and Meteor is certainly nothing to sniff at, especially with the amp increase. Not sure how much love this gives Paladins, not knowing how effective those increases will be. As for steal, it still sounds pretty useless.

Blast at 580% and holy at 150% is nice, gives 870% damage on neutrals (heroes is 988%), and 1305% on holy weak. If Threaten decreases a bosses weapon defense by 20%, I checked quickly, that'd give my bowmaster ~140k extra DPM on zakum 3, at any boss with 2 parties+, that could make a big difference to cover the gap between heroes and 'dins, as long as they aren'te elementally resistant. The extra damage only increases at stronger bosses,

Rick

2009-12-29, 07:49 AM

The thread over on Sleepywood says Thunder Charge was changed to stack with the other charges, but since Fiel didn't catch it am I safe to assume they're wrong?

Fiel

2009-12-29, 07:58 AM

The thread over on Sleepywood says Thunder Charge was changed to stack with the other charges, but since Fiel didn't catch it am I safe to assume they're wrong?

"What stacks with what" is a formula which is not stated in the wz files. So I didn't miss it, but they are probably right about it if they're getting it from the patch notes. Also, the exact mechanics of how Beholder works isn't in the WZ files either. One thing they did mention that caught my eye was Thunderbolt's range being increased which would be in the data. I didn't see that at all and I still don't see it.

Blake

2009-12-29, 08:16 AM

Pink Bean
Effective magic: Poison, Lightning
Less effective magic: Fire, Ice, Holy

Any ideas on how this will affect Paladins with dual charge?

Chameleonic

2009-12-29, 08:17 AM

Looks liket they are saving the best changes till last...crosses fingers.

Devil

2009-12-29, 08:19 AM

Nikkey

2009-12-29, 08:20 AM

If thunder charge stacks, then Paladins will be overpowered. Seriously. On holy weak/lit weak: 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.25 before defense. That is more than 1631.25% with the new blast. Over 1087.5% without any weakness.

With dual charge: 0.5 * 1.5 = 0.75, so a loss from the weakness. with another 1.25 boost, you get 93.75, so better off with lit alone.

Fiel

2009-12-29, 08:21 AM

Hmmmm weird upgrade for Steal... also the 250 range... that's quite huge for a 2nd job skill... :o

Anyway, same forward range as BoT (150 forward range + 100 explosion range to both sides), and BoT does a lot more damage then 130% (250% after upgrade). Still... is it 100% stun ratio? o.0

No. It should be a 50% probability for stun.

Also, looking at the lightning charge stacking thing, it's true. Here's the skill description for Lighting Charge:

[마스터 레벨 : 30]\n일정 시간동안 둔기에 번개 속성을 부여한다. 다른 속성의 차지 스킬과 중복하여 사용할 수 있다. 시간이 다 되거나 차지 블로우를 사용하면 취소된다.

[Master Level: 30] \ n period of time is given to blunt force lightning properties. Charge of the property in conjunction with other skills can be used. It takes time to blow, or you will be canceled.

Okay, the translation was comical, but it gets the point across. :f2:

Blake

2009-12-29, 08:25 AM

SlayerZach

2009-12-29, 08:25 AM

Mmm, Threaten, Divine/Holy and Fire/Flame Charged got a nice Buff. Although, I still think us Paladins are kinda crippled against neutrals/resisting monsters. :c

Edit: Whoa, Duo-charging? Though I'll still stick with my opinion that we're gonna suck on Neutrals/resistants. >_>

WayOfTime

2009-12-29, 08:26 AM

A paladin charge-stack would be quite interesting, but as stated above, overpowered. An archer change I would like to see is have the skills Blizzard and Inferno be buffs instead of attacks. :f2: I know this would not happen, but it would be fun~!

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 08:27 AM

Also, looking at the lightning charge stacking thing, it's true.
How do you think that would work in a formula, based on how other similar things work now?

Would it be (LitCharge*HolyCharge*DamageRange*skill) or ((LitCharge+HolyCharge)*DamageRange*skill)?

Nikkey

2009-12-29, 08:28 AM

Mmm, Threaten, Divine/Holy and Fire/Flame Charged got a nice Buff. Although, I still think us Paladins are kinda crippled against neutrals/resisting monsters. :c

Oh yeah we are crippled. Doing more damage against bosses such as Zakum and Horntail and Pink Bean than Heroes and stuff. The only way we are crippled is because the damage we deal is in one hit only, which means we hit the upper limit faster.( I'm pretty mad about that, actually.)

Formula would be the usual deal, I think.

((base dmg * lit charge * lit advantage * elemental charge * elemental advantage) - def) * (skill% + possible crit(s))

If not, then lit it would be a tad weaker with holy, but heckstrong with ice.

Devil

2009-12-29, 08:30 AM

Erm, Dual Charge? WTF?!?!?! If Paladins get buffed THAT much, Shadowers needs rebalance again... -.-

Assassinate 800% x4 pl0x... -.-

Fiel

2009-12-29, 08:32 AM

Kaida - that's pure speculation at this point for me. There's no logical way I could know that, so I'll just abstain.

Devil's - How many mobs actually have both a holy and lit weakness? I'm sure there are mobs like that, but I can't think of any off the top of my head let alone any mobs that would be decent for training. We don't know how the formula works right now, so I think stating that they're overpowered, while it might be true, is a hasty conclusion.

Nikkey

2009-12-29, 08:32 AM

Erm, Dual Charge? wtp?!?!?! If Paladins get buffed THAT much, Shadowers needs rebalance again... -.-

Assassinate 800% x4 pl0x... -.-

More like skipping dual buff. Better to nerf one class than to buff all the others.

And fiel, by lit/elemental advantage, I mean one of the following multipliers:
0, 0.5, 1, 1.5

For Holy-weak mobs, that would be 1.5 * 1.5 * 1.25 * 1, for lit-weak mobs: 1.5 * 1 * 1.25 * 1.5. In total, a 2.8125-multiplier before applying def. For holy and lit-weak mobs... 4.21875. More than 2446.875% with blast.

It would surely be weird if those elemental advantages would be added. On neutral mobs, you'll have a 1 + 1 = 2 elemental advantage. Lit + elemental charge could be additive, which would make it less overpowered.

Edit: Argh why can't I watch the former posts while editing? Soo bothersome.

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 08:38 AM

Devil's - How many mobs actually have both a holy and lit weakness? I'm sure there are mobs like that, but I can't think of any off the top of my head let alone any mobs that would be decent for training. We don't know how the formula works right now, so I think stating that they're overpowered, while it might be true, is a hasty conclusion.
Anego and anything in the Regret maps of Temple of Time. My bad, the Regret guys are Fire and Lit. Can still double-charge them though.

Okay, so if it works like Devil's Sunrise said, here's how it goes. Remember, speed is faster (2). Target is neutral.
Heroes do 1568% damage/second to 3 targets.
Paladins do 1222% damage/second to 1 target with the old Blast/Holy Charge
Paladins do 1726% damage/second to 1 target with the new Blast + Holy/Lit Charge

WayOfTime

2009-12-29, 08:41 AM

That is quite...impressive. That would really show that they could be very good at bossing. What will ACB look like V.S. Heroes?

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 08:44 AM

That is quite...impressive. That would really show that they could be very good at bossing. What will ACB look like V.S. Heroes?
1041% damage/second per target (neutral). It would outdamage Heroes on 2 or more targets or more which is obviously the only time you'd use it. I'm stupid.

Disclaimer: I would like to reiterate that all the numbers I said are based on the assumption that the charges are multiplied, like Devil's Sunrise said.

Devil

2009-12-29, 09:03 AM

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 09:24 AM

The only monsters with dual weaknesses including lightning are vikerolas, male boss, all qualm monsters in ToT. Hardly impressive there. Intresting otherwise.
Edit: Oh, and anego

1125% damage/second per target (neutral). It would outdamage Heroes on 2 or more targets or more which is obviously the only time you'd use it.

You what now? On larger mobs it would but Heroes do 1568% per target per second :f6:
ACB +lit +holy= 350*1.25*1.5=656% per attack per monster
Brandish is 988% per attack per monster

Infact, ACB+lit+Holy with an advantage = 350*1.25*1.5*1.5 = 984%, 4% short of brandish per monster. Makes sense to me

Kirov

2009-12-29, 09:32 AM

Dual charging, that’s an interesting way of getting more power out of existing skills. I wonder how effective it will turn out to be in practice.

ThatWasMyKil

2009-12-29, 09:34 AM

Make Gene 2900 yeah? :D

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 09:36 AM

Make Gene 2900 yeah? :D

You don't have the cost doubled with Amplification:f3:

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 09:47 AM

You what now? On larger mobs it would but Heroes do 1568% per target per second :f6:
Yeah, you're right. Huge mistake there. I'm retarded. In my head, I multiplied ACB by the number of targets being hit, but not Brandish.

ACB +lit +holy= 350*1.25*1.5=656% per attack per monster
Brandish is 988% per attack per monster

Infact, ACB+lit+Holy with an advantage = 350*1.25*1.5*1.5 = 984%, 4% short of brandish per monster. Makes sense to me
I have no idea why, but for some reason I had lit charge at 1.35 instead of 1.25. I think I was messing with potential changes to charges earlier and forgot to change it back. Limmie fix my stuff above...

Paladins do 1726% damage/second to 1 target with the new Blast + Holy/Lit Charge
1041% damage per monster with ACB

Devil

2009-12-29, 09:48 AM

Ok bossing scenario (elemental neutral offcourse):

Old: 550*1.4 = 770% per Blast
New: 580*1.5*1.25 = 1087.5% per Blast

Damage increase: +41.23% wtp.......

NERF PL0X...... -.-

WHAT THE FOCK IS THIS FOR FCKED UP OVERPOWER 1 CLASS PATCH... -.-

It's the same as buffing Assassinate from 4x 600% damage to 4x 850% damage, and I'm not even talking about elemental damage Paladins -can- have...

Really... what the fock is this for retard who came up with this... Let me guess... he works for Nexon... oh nvm... -.-Wait I just thought of something, Mages also have dual element attacks, but those are halved when combined, but status effects remain. What if this is the case with Paladins also? It would make sense though...

Lightning Charge = 1.25 * 0.5 = 0.625
Holy Charge = 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75

Combined Lightning Holy Charge = 1.375

That would result in a Holy Electric Blast of 580% * 1.375 = 797.5% damage on neutral bosses. Holy with Stunning ability.

That would make a lot more sense then just stacking everything 100% together without any losses...

Does anyone have any confirmation on half damage elemental stacking?

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 09:49 AM

Does anyone have any confirmation on half damage elemental stacking?
How could we possibly know that? And when did Blast get a stunning ability?

¥-Striker-¥

2009-12-29, 09:52 AM

Wow dual charged Pallies..
Anego die.

Devil

2009-12-29, 09:58 AM

How could we possibly know that? And when did Blast get a stunning ability?Bullcrap:My bad, I thought lightning charge would stun a monster... Well what about Holy Ice Charge then?

Ice Charge = 1.10 * 0.5 = 0.55
Holy Charge = 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75

Combined Holy Ice Charge = 1.3x

That would result in a Holy Ice Blast of 580% * 1.3 = 754% (old Ice Blast was 605%) damage on neutral bosses. Holy with Freezing ability.
I just realized only Lightning charge stacks, not ice.. Well nvm then...

Still dual element charge without any damage nerfs is plain unbalanced, especially regarding other classes...

Lugin

2009-12-29, 09:58 AM

Wait I just thought of something, Mages also have dual element attacks, but those are halved when combined, but status effects remain. What if this is the case with Paladins also? It would make sense though...

Lightning Charge = 1.25 * 0.5 = 0.625
Holy Charge = 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75

Combined Lightning Holy Charge = 1.375

That would result in a Holy Electric Blast of 580% * 1.375 = 797.5% damage on neutral bosses. Holy with Stunning ability.

That would make a lot more sense then just stacking everything 100% together without any losses...

Does anyone have any confirmation on half damage elemental stacking?

If that's how it works, it'd be smarter for the Paladin to just use Holy.

Kabanaw

2009-12-29, 10:02 AM

I like the MP reduction to ultimates, but that's really not what needs to be changed. AMs with an ele weapon now do more damage to mobs weak to holy than bishops do with ultimates. But we don't need more damage with ultimates, we need more damage with bossing skills. This patch increased the amount of damage done by an I/L AM with an ele weapon from 315 base dmg to 337.5. That's about a 7% increase in total damage, which is maybe a few thousand more DPS. AMs need much bigger changes to their skills than this. Bandits get an awesome change to a previously terrible skill, a boomerang step cooldown reduction, and a slightly better assassinate; Paladins get a dual charge, which greatly increases their damage; Corsairs have no minimum range, a more durable ship, and more damage when their ship is broken. AMs deserve more than 7% more bossing damage.

ArbalistMaster

2009-12-29, 10:03 AM

My bad, I thought lightning charge would stun a monster... Well what about Holy Ice Charge then?

Ice Charge = 1.10 * 0.5 = 0.55
Holy Charge = 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75

Combined Holy Ice Charge = 1.3x

That would result in a Holy Ice Blast of 580% * 1.3 = 754% (old Ice Blast was 605%) damage on neutral bosses. Holy with Freezing ability.

except only lit charge can be stacked with the rest.

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 10:03 AM

Wait I just thought of something, Mages also have dual element attacks, but those are halved when combined, but status effects remain. What if this is the case with Paladins also? It would make sense though...

uhh, thats not how mages work :f7: the only thing thats combined is the elemental advantages, *1.25 if it's weak to ice , and *1.25 if it's weak to lighting (for I/L comp), the base damage is unchanged. It'd still be 580*1.5*1.25 and 350*1.5*1.25 + any advantages, which could possibly be *1.25 and *1.25, rather than *1.5, though I doubt it, as the skills are coded to give *1.5 bonuses

Devil

2009-12-29, 10:11 AM

If that's how it works, it'd be smarter for the Paladin to just use Holy.Hmmm... But what if the monster is weak to lightning and elemental advantage is FULLY kept?

Old:
550*1.25*1.5 = 1031.25% to lightning weak with Lightning Charge
550*1.4=770% to lightning weak with Holy Charge

New:
Lightning Charge = 1.25 * 0.5 = 0.625
Holy Charge = 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75

Combined Lightning Holy Charge = 1.375

580*1.375*1.5 = 1196.25% to lightning weak.

More damage to Anego / Crow / Headless Horseman... :)

Magatia

2009-12-29, 10:17 AM

Hmmm... But what if the monster is weak to lightning and elemental advantage is FULLY kept?

Old:
580*1.25*1.5 = 1087.5% to lightning weak

New:
Lightning Charge = 1.25 * 0.5 = 0.625
Holy Charge = 1.5 * 0.5 = 0.75

Combined Lightning Holy Charge = 1.375

580*1.375*1.5 = 1196.25% to lightning weak

More damage to Anego / Crow / Headless Horseman... :)

Elemental composition doesn't work like that, it has half elemental advantage, and is a dual element attack too. Should be the same in this case.

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 10:22 AM

Elemental composition doesn't work like that, it has half elemental advantage, and is a dual element attack too. Should be the same in this case.
And unless the monster is weak to Holy+Lit, that would make double-elementing totally useless. I don't think it works like Devil hopes it works.

This buff might be too big though. Now they've made it so that Pallies are only a little weaker than Bowmasters on single targets. And why are DrKs left in the dust? They should be at least as strong as Heroes.

Devil

2009-12-29, 10:24 AM

Ice + Lightning Charge combined:

Old Ice weak:
550*1.1*1.5 = 907.5% to Ice weak

New:
Lightning Charge = 1.25 * 0.5 = 0.625
Ice Charge = 1.1 * 0.5 = 0.55

Combined Lightning Ice Charge = 1.175

580*1.175*1.5 = 1022% to Ice weak.

------------

Little (own) conclusion:
- Neutral: 770% > 870%
- Old Ice weak: 907.5% per Blast > New Ice Weak: 1022% per Blast.
- Old Lightning weak: 1031.25% per Blast > New Lightning Weak: 1196.25% per Blast.

P.S. If this example is not the case, and Lightning + Holy Charge can stack -without- any penalties, Paladins become the strongest melee characters on Neutral monsters (yes, neutral) and outdamage Hero's by 10%... So yeah, this can't be true... With Elemental weakness (Holy for example), Paladins would do 65% more damage then Hero's... This whole scenario sounds a little bit much unrealistic to me... So I stick to my own conclusion of only half elemental damage bonuses, and I hope for the sake of -game balance- that this is actually true... Unless Nexon is planning on rebalancing Shadowers / Buccaneers / DK's -AGAIN- the next patch...

Teppi

2009-12-29, 10:27 AM

i wonder why did they choose thunder, if they want duo-charge why dont they let us code so that we can buff any charge but there can be two at a time. that way it'll give the paladins more benefits

CourageLess

2009-12-29, 10:33 AM

Interesting , I smell threaten mules coming along :f1:
Anyway , what if the monster's immune or resistant to one of the elements (ice/fire/holy+thunder)?
I wonder how the damage would turn out to be like.
Then again , I do look forward to this .:shine:

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 10:36 AM

i wonder why did they choose thunder, if they want duo-charge why dont they let us code so that we can buff any charge but there can be two at a time. that way it'll give the paladins more benefits

Because ice is too weak and freezes, and a lot more monsters are weak to fire rather than lightning.

¥-Striker-¥

2009-12-29, 10:57 AM

Get a skill at level 200!
One skill
i wan se for nls

Hazzy

2009-12-29, 11:20 AM

Wow, dual charges and percentage based Threaten. I may go back to my Page....
For Fire Arrow, what do you mean by "Now shows different animations for when you hit levels 40 and 50."? Picspls?

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 11:27 AM

Extremely interesting changes, but i'm extremely disappointed at the same time.

dpeterlin

2009-12-29, 11:37 AM

I guess we need to wait to see how this plays out.
No matter how the charges stack or multiply or whatever I'm positive this news lived up to every Pallys expectations.

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 11:50 AM

Hiepocrite

2009-12-29, 11:53 AM

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 11:54 AM

I wonder what's going to be the new lolclass..

Buccaneers.

Schrono

2009-12-29, 11:54 AM

More Marauder/Bucc changes? Lol, they already changed them once and they said they weren't going to change them again.

Magicians and Shadowers have had changes in both of the kmst patches, proving that the statement, "the classes that have had changes made in the first kmst patch will not be changed further in other patches," to be false.

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 11:55 AM

Patch notes on SW make this patch suck less for DrKs:

- Beholder's buff can now determine whether each users' pre-applied buff is better than beholders or not in order to avoid canceling pre-applied buffs if they are better than be holder's. However, if beholder's buff is better than the pre-applied buffs, the pre-applied buffs will be canceled and change to beholder's buff.
That doesn't make up for the fact that they're still 85ish% as strong as Heroes while needing to keep their HP low. If you have to jump through hoops just to use your buffs, they'd better be good buffs!

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 12:00 PM

That doesn't make up for the fact that they're still 85ish% as strong as Heroes while needing to keep their HP low. If you have to jump through hoops just to use your buffs, they'd better be good buffs!

There isn't much room as far as i can see for making DrKs stronger. Increase crusher/fury damage and they're overpowered as f'uck in 3rd job. Raising the HP % and/or damage % for berserk anymore is just retarded. Making sacrifice awesome doesn't really affect the majority of DrKs as far as bossing goes. What else is there?

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 12:06 PM

Raising the HP % and/or damage % for berserk anymore is just retarded.
I was just thinking make Berserk 225% to 240% or so. Just barely enough to make them about as strong as Heroes without SI. Why is that retarded?

Dusk

2009-12-29, 12:10 PM

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 12:10 PM

I was just thinking make Berserk 225% to 240% or so. Just barely enough to make them about as strong as Heroes without SI. Why is that retarded?

Well first of all, i don't think there's a single buff in the game that raises ones damage that high. Second of all, i'm not really a fan of just bumping up %s, especially for DrKs. If they want to increase damage i would rather they speed up crusher rather than make it do more damage. Arans full swing double stabs insanely fast compared to crusher.

Bribery

2009-12-29, 12:11 PM

Beholder's Buff was the only thing that needed changing with DrKs IMO. They have the most useful and most important party buff in the game so there is no need for them to be as strong as Heroes.

fiftyschmooo

2009-12-29, 12:13 PM

Beholder's Buff was the only thing that needed changing with DrKs IMO. They have the most useful and most important party buff in the game so there is no need for them to be as strong as Heroes.

Nah Corsairs have the most useful Party skill in the game...DAMAGE OUTPUT :D:D:D >.>

...

...

...

I would like to see the charges stack in much the same way Elemental Comp works for mages too. half the damage form X skill and half the damage from Y skill it could be a nice and interesting boost to use on monsters that are weak to one of your elemental and neutral to the other(cause i would assume if theyre weak to 1 and strong to the other u wouldnt be using both charges anyways.....) and since theres not a UBER HIGH ammount of bosses weak to both Lightning and Holy..(might be 0....) this doesn't reallllly have theability to be a uber nerf to the enth degree and either way is a nice increase for the class. As are the other updates, i like not making Fire arrow a mob skill @ level 1, it was a little toooo powerful i think, and i liek how it must now progress upwards. Steal is a great addition and all around upgrade, i don't really agree with the damage upgrade to it, but the effect i do and making it a mob attack is a perfect touch but if anything they should have made it weaker so ppl arnt just spaming it in cpq>.> cause 130% damage for that far range in a mob attack is... really good... thats as powerful as Slash blast for warriors baring the cast time/No Final attack. The rest of the upgrades were... meh really, 10% to an attack here... a mp reduction there... not really required anywhere.....just nice little additions

But the question im really asking... is whats the point in raising almost every attack and fiddling with them all just to make them compairable to Legend classes? Why not just reduce the Legend classes damage out-put abilities to make them on par with Adventurers? That would make more sense to me instead of changing almost every 2nd/3rd/4th job skill by upgrading them... or why dont they just upgrade EVERY main attack and mob skill by a bunch and not have to worry about having to change any Pink Beeeeeeeeeeeeen time limits or HP values... make it so we can actually deal the ammount of damage needed int he timeframe instead of changing the timeframe... im sure if everyone did like.. 15-20% more damage persecond we could down it easy.... judging by that Windia run that i saw, (thinks of Maple Warrior adding Wep atk and Matk also at Set Percentages as well as int/luk/str/dex which of corse woudl stack with Echo)

Hypocrism

2009-12-29, 12:13 PM

I was just thinking make Berserk 225% to 240% or so. Just barely enough to make them about as strong as Heroes without SI. Why is that retarded?

Because DrKs are the supporting warrior compared with Heroes and Paladins. Paladins are being buffed up to be comparable to heroes it seems, and DrKs have their HB that ensures them places in boss runs.

Cyanne

2009-12-29, 12:14 PM

Bribery

2009-12-29, 12:21 PM

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 12:27 PM

The lightning charge stacking thing is good, if the elemental bonus works like comp. That means paladins' damage only on neutrals and double weaknesses with one being lightning(where they should excel) is increased because using it on a single weakness reduces the element bonus. The only double weakness of a high-leveled monster I can remember in kMS is the regrets area at time temple, plus anego in other versions.

Even if it is only one weakness, 1.5*1.25*1.25=234% (holy + lit + half bonus) is more than 1.5*1.5= 225%, granted only barely :).
On the upside, if it does work like comp, the damage lost to resistance to (assuming all elements, otherwise you;d just use a different one...) is decreased a fair bit.
Current way of working. Holy resistant. = 1.5*.5 = 75%.
Holy + lit resistant with these changes, if it works like comp = 1.25(lit)*1.5(holy)*.75(lit res)*.75(holy res)= 105% damage, rather than 75%

Cyanne

2009-12-29, 12:29 PM

I'm starting to be worried for Mages. It seems like KMS doesn't realize what the real problem with them is. I hope they end up reworking the magic damage formula because these updates aren't doing any justice for Mages' bossing DPS. Also, Thunderbolt really needs a damage boost to compare with Fire Arrow.

I'm loving all the Bandit changes though. I think I may have to start leveling my baby level 26 Bandit. :f3:

Unfortunately, it's way too late for the magic damage formula to be changed. You can probably imagine the chaos that would result from that happening. Fire arrow to 180 spell attack, cold beam to 160, thunderbolt to 80, and holy arrow to 120 would've been better. The 2nd job F/P was always about hitting 1 target, now it just looks dumb.

holyforest

2009-12-29, 12:33 PM

I'm happy for Paladins and all, but I still think that some skills need a little bit more reworking. =/

Kalovale

2009-12-29, 12:35 PM

At least they could raise Crusher's speed to its own speed but at lvl 1~15. -.-

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 12:43 PM

Well first of all, i don't think there's a single buff in the game that raises ones damage that high. Second of all, i'm not really a fan of just bumping up %s, especially for DrKs. If they want to increase damage i would rather they speed up crusher rather than make it do more damage. Arans full swing double stabs insanely fast compared to crusher.
Wouldn't raising its speed just make them even more broken in 3rd job? Yenno, exactly what you said you didn't want?

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 12:46 PM

Wouldn't raising its speed just make them even more broken in 3rd job? Yenno, exactly what you said you didn't want?

Kind of, but DKs don't usually train with crusher.

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 12:48 PM

Kind of, but DKs don't usually train with crusher.
Wait... what?

Bribery

2009-12-29, 12:49 PM

Fury is more useful in 3rd job than Crusher.

Kitteh

2009-12-29, 12:55 PM

You'd still get a much faster Fury.

Stereo

2009-12-29, 01:07 PM

Paladins become the strongest melee characters on Neutral monsters (yes, neutral) and outdamage Hero's by 10%... So yeah, this can't be true... With Elemental weakness (Holy for example), Paladins would do 65% more damage then Hero's... This whole scenario sounds a little bit much unrealistic to me...

Heroes hit 3 targets with Brandish, how is it balanced that it does more damage per target than Blast at any number? Blast is the only single target skill for 4th job melee classes aside Buccaneers (who do need another round of buffs, unless I underestimated their previous upgrades), it should probably be stronger than BS/Brandish/Crusher.

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 01:11 PM

Buccaneers (who do need another round of buffs, unless I underestimated their previous upgrades).

Increased range of barr and 90% stance is a s'hit upgrade compared to what every other class got.

byakugan

2009-12-29, 01:20 PM

Unfortunately, it's way too late for the magic damage formula to be changed. You can probably imagine the chaos that would result from that happening. Fire arrow to 180 spell attack, cold beam to 160, thunderbolt to 80, and holy arrow to 120 would've been better. The 2nd job F/P was always about hitting 1 target, now it just looks dumb.

This. Its just what i was thinking about before. They wont do any changes to the magic formula simply because Evan was built on the actual one. If they changed it to make it stronger they would have to recalculate all Evan's skills again, and it's been little less than 2 weeks since it was just released.

I think it's fair Paladis are stronger than Heroes on single targets, however, if what devil said about they being as strong as bowmaster on NEUTRAL monsters is true then it is way too much. Heores will be the ones asking for a rebalance then just to get into boss parties and thats not balanced at all. :f7:

Still waiting for a stronger Panic / Coma and Party Enrage.

Bribery

2009-12-29, 01:25 PM

Unfortunately, it's way too late for the magic damage formula to be changed. You can probably imagine the chaos that would result from that happening. Fire arrow to 180 spell attack, cold beam to 160, thunderbolt to 80, and holy arrow to 120 would've been better. The 2nd job F/P was always about hitting 1 target, now it just looks dumb.

This. Its just what i was thinking about before. They wont do any changes to the magic formula simply because Evan was built on the actual one. If they changed it to make it stronger they would have to recalculate all Evan's skills again, and it's been little less than 2 weeks since it was just released.

*sigh* I forgot about that. Oh well, at least Evans have a useful party buff so their damage won't really matter, but Arch Mages really need a bossing damage boost. Maybe Nexon could come out with an "Onyx Apple" equivalent for mages that gives the same kind of boost that Onyx Apples give to physical classes.

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 01:27 PM

*sigh* I forgot about that. Oh well, at least Evans have a useful party buff so their damage won't really matter, but Arch Mages really need a bossing damage boost. Maybe Nexon could come out with an "Onyx Apple" equivalent for mages that gives the same kind of boost that Onyx Apples give to physical classes.

500 m.att pots would be ridiculous for a number of reasons.

The magic damage formula being reworked isn't just because of the evan v mage thing. It's a s'hit load more than that.

Hazzy

2009-12-29, 01:31 PM

*sigh* I forgot about that. Oh well, at least Evans have a useful party buff so their damage won't really matter, but Arch Mages really need a bossing damage boost. Maybe Nexon could come out with an "Onyx Apple" equivalent for mages that gives the same kind of boost that Onyx Apples give to physical classes.

I doubt it's hard to change the current Onyx Apple's +100 mAtk into +150% mWatk (1000 magic attack would become 1500).
Raw numbers, like + 500, would cause chaos for low leveled mages.

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 01:33 PM

I doubt it's hard to change the current Onyx Apple's +100 mAtk into +150% mWatk (1000 magic attack would become 1500).
Raw numbers, like + 500, would cause chaos for low leveled mages.

Just like how onyx apples cause chaos for low leveled weapon classes?

Making a % increase would mean that regular +m.att pots would stack with it though...

dpeterlin

2009-12-29, 01:35 PM

500 m.att pots would be ridiculous for a number of reasons.

500 is a rather tame number -- 750 would be a more realistic number to compare to the damage boost that high weapon att classes get -- more for lower watt classes

I honestly completely forgot about the balancing of the mages. If this is the last change I am really disappointed. A 10% addition to amp is laughable.

Hazzy

2009-12-29, 01:36 PM

An additional 20 mAtk won't do anything... o-o. Unless you stacked it with those 5 second 1000 mAtk pots from a while ago, it wouldn't make any difference.

IllegallySane

2009-12-29, 01:36 PM

Done writing skill changes. This is it.

No.... no more Adventurer changes will be made in kMS? RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE.

On the other hand, maaaassive love for the Paladin line. An actual % based Threaten is unbelievably good and can work as a party buff now. -20% attack/defense/accuracy? Dayum.........

Well I'm going to go to a corner and be down for the rest of the day because of my class.

Devil

2009-12-29, 01:37 PM

Heroes hit 3 targets with Brandish, how is it balanced that it does more damage per target than Blast at any number? Blast is the only single target skill for 4th job melee classes aside Buccaneers (who do need another round of buffs, unless I underestimated their previous upgrades), it should probably be stronger than BS/Brandish/Crusher.
- Paladins get ACB, Shadowers get Bstep, Bucs get Dragon Strike, all for multi-targeting...
- Paladins get Blast, Shadowers get Assassinate, Bucs get Barrage/Demo, all for single targets...

I don't see why Paladins should be the nr.1 damage dealing melee class at bosses -WITHOUT- even using elemental advantages, and -WITH- elemental advantages should almost be as strong as Bowmasters...

Anyway, if Paladins really get the full stack dual element boost:
- Assassinate needs to be boosted to 850% per hit
- BStep should be 625% per hit
- Savage Blow should be 100% per hit
- Barrage should be raised to 290% per hit
- Demolition should be raised to 500% per hit
- Berserk should be raised to 250% damage in Berserk mode

That's how unbalanced this is... that's why I hope this is not the case... a Blunt Weapon Paladin would outdamage a Sword Hero on a non-elemental boss... :/

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 01:37 PM

No.... no more Adventurer changes will be made in kMS? RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGE.

On the other hand, maaaassive love for the Paladin line. An actual % based Threaten is unbelievably good and can work as a party buff now. -20% attack/defense/accuracy? Dayum.........

Well I'm going to go to a corner and be down for the rest of the day because of my class.

I think he meant this is it for this patch. Lol.

- Barrage should be raised to 290% per hit
- Demolition should be raised to 500% per hit

Woah there...

Stereo

2009-12-29, 01:39 PM

I think it's fair Paladis are stronger than Heroes on single targets, however, if what devil said about they being as strong as bowmaster on NEUTRAL monsters is true then it is way too much. Heores will be the ones asking for a rebalance then just to get into boss parties and thats not balanced at all. :f7:.

Paladins are stronger than Bowmasters on lightning/fire/holy weak mobs, eg. Anego (3500%/s), the Regret mobs (3250%/s), Lightning/Holy-only (2330%/s), maybe Fire-only (2175%/s). Weaker on Ice and anything neutral (1550-1700%/s). Night Lords have 2295%/s and I think BMs are around there too.

Paladins do have a way bigger range in percents though, I mean from Ergoth (828%/s) and PB (1050%/s, or I guess 525% due to physical resistance) to Anego (3500%/s) is a huge difference that's entirely up to how Nexon chooses weaknesses.

And of course on 2+ targets Heroes outdamage Paladins on anything except dual-weaknesses.

IllegallySane

2009-12-29, 01:39 PM

I think he meant this is it for this patch. Lol.

Your post saying we're the next lolclass made me think otherwise. ~.~

Well Imma cancel out my temporary depression then. :poast:

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 01:39 PM

Your post saying we're the next lolclass made me think otherwise. ~.~

Well Imma cancel out my temporary depression then. :poast:

If no more damage increasing changes are made to our class, we will be.

Bribery

2009-12-29, 01:41 PM

500 m.att pots would be ridiculous for a number of reasons.

The magic damage formula being reworked isn't just because of the evan v mage thing. It's a s'hit load more than that.

I doubt it's hard to change the current Onyx Apple's +100 mAtk into +150% mWatk (1000 magic attack would become 1500).
Raw numbers, like + 500, would cause chaos for low leveled mages.

I don't see anything wrong with +500 Matk pots if they carry the same price tag as Onyx Apples.

And I wasn't implying that Evans vs Mages was the only reason that the formula could not change. I was stating that Evans don't really need a DPS boost because their -20% Magic Damage and, to a lesser extent, their -30% Damage for 30 seconds skill make them very useful at higher level bosses. But as it stands, Arch Mages are the only class that don't contribute anything to bosses.

I realize that it isn't easy to change the magic damage formula at this point, so maybe they could at least boost Paralyze/Chain Lightning's damage output.

IllegallySane

2009-12-29, 01:42 PM

If no more damage increasing changes are made to our class, we will be.

I shall keep hoping. If loladins can become beastly, then so can we.

Don't forsaken me now kMS!

Saar331

2009-12-29, 01:45 PM

in maplestory,
the two hardest jobs to train are paladin and crusader

THEY DIDNT UPDATE THE FUCKING CRUSADER FUCK THAT

Stereo

2009-12-29, 01:47 PM

in maplestory,
the two hardest jobs to train are paladin and crusader

That's hardly true, Paladins are easy to train, just slow. It's a lot harder to train F/P or Chief Bandit in any case.

Saar331

2009-12-29, 01:49 PM

i forgot about f/p and priests,yea
but CBs got their update
crusaders are gonna be hell rare now

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 01:52 PM

i forgot about f/p and priests,yea
but CBs got their update
crusaders are gonna be hell rare now

lol @ saders being hard to train. No 3rd job is hard to train anymore. And no, I don't mean leeching

Saar331

2009-12-29, 01:54 PM

fineeee
go you and get 10 levels with no special attack at all besides combo
and go you train yourself from 100 to 120 for useless skills...
fail :[
[at least heroes pwn]

Kevo

2009-12-29, 02:06 PM

fineeee
go you and get 10 levels with no special attack at all besides combo
and go you train yourself from 100 to 120 for useless skills...
fail :[
[at least heroes pwn]

Lots of people have done that...

You should have tried training pre 4th Job. How about training 120+ and having to save SP whereas you got 4th Job skills the moment you reached 120.
There's 2x cards, Family system that should just burn, and 20% reduced exp. It's very easy to train to 120 no matter the class these days.

ps: How come my post got cut off randomly o-o

dpeterlin

2009-12-29, 02:07 PM

fineeee
go you and get 10 levels with no special attack at all besides combo
and go you train yourself from 100 to 120 for useless skills...
fail :[
[at least heroes pwn]

Does any class raise useful skills from 100-120? besides ck ofc
From what I remember combo is typically raised to 21 before moving on and coming back to it later-- so only 7 levels -- may be wrong there though
Also don't forget priests who raise HS for their first 11 levels (dispel being a req to unlock hs) -- Hermits raise sp which is just a damage boost also

Though I agree they aren't the fastest levelers -- your arguments were lacking

Loose

2009-12-29, 02:18 PM

Kabanaw

2009-12-29, 03:00 PM

Then there are Marauders, who have Energy Charge that maxes at level 40. And another 13 or so levels wasted on Stun Mastery and Transformation. Hmm... all Marauder skills aren't always useable, you have to meet certain requirements before you use can activate them (Energy, Stun and Transform).

In other news, I am happy with this update. It's making me want to make a Page, and also making me regret dumping my 2nd job leftovers in Disorder, not Steal.

I put mine into Endure. awesome MP recovery after this. I don't really regret not getting steal because now that I have BoT I don't need it.

I was talking about how this better not be the last update for mages on page 3. So far nothing has been done to improve AMs at bosses. But seeing as how radically they've changed some of the other skills, I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to make AM reflection into a party skill.

Loose

2009-12-29, 03:19 PM

I put mine into Endure. awesome MP recovery after this. I don't really regret not getting steal because now that I have BoT I don't need it.
Also used mine to max Endure, then 1 Steal and the rest in Disorder.

Russt

2009-12-29, 03:21 PM

There isn't much room as far as i can see for making DrKs stronger. Increase crusher/fury damage and they're overpowered as f'uck in 3rd job. Raising the HP % and/or damage % for berserk anymore is just retarded. Making sacrifice awesome doesn't really affect the majority of DrKs as far as bossing goes. What else is there?

Add a speed increase to Berserk. +2 speed on top of Booster. That would make it stronger without actually making the multiplier any crazier, and also effectively bring about the 4th job speed increase you want.

Of course, there's the problem of hitting the cap...

How do you think that would work in a formula, based on how other similar things work now?

Would it be (LitCharge*HolyCharge*DamageRange*skill) or ((LitCharge+HolyCharge)*DamageRange*skill)?

I actually think it might be additive and composition-like.
BaseDamage * (HolyCharge + LitCharge-100)/100 * (1 + (HolyAdvantage + LitAdvantage)/2)

Charges normally cancel... so I think they might be applied as the same step in the damage calculation. In order to have two charges stack, the simplest way would be to add one charge to the other.

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 03:37 PM

fineeee
go you and get 10 levels with no special attack at all besides combo
and go you train yourself from 100 to 120 for useless skills...
fail :[
[at least heroes pwn]

I've trained a paladin... And when I did it, they got no useful skills FROM 80 TO 120. :f3: The only thing of any merit before hnad was Fire Charge, and all training when I did it was in ludi dungeon, everyone else got to toddle off elsewhere, without worrying about needing element advantage to get 6% an hour at 11x :f3:

Conciente

2009-12-29, 03:38 PM

There's no ending to the complaints over "balance" no matter what Nexon does. Lol, people whine about everything. Who cares if class A is better than class B? Just enjoy your character...

Where are my NL skill upgrades?

holyforest

2009-12-29, 03:46 PM

Tay

2009-12-29, 03:49 PM

Hmm, I'm still having doubts about the ability of this new Steal.
I wonder when these updates are coming to kMS, so I can know when to super grind my Dit.

Kabanaw

2009-12-29, 03:51 PM

This. So badly this. Just enjoy what your class offers. Be happy with what you have.

The problem is that what people have is classes that can't do any damage to bosses, and nothing to do end game. The problem is people have classes that are unwanted at bosses because of a lack of party skills and lack of damage. The problem is that there's nothing that their class offers to be happy about.

Funny how the two arguing that there's no need for balance are a Bishop and a NL, no?
jkjkjk, no flame plz

Conciente

2009-12-29, 03:58 PM

The problem is that what people have is classes that can't do any damage to bosses, and nothing to do end game. The problem is people have classes that are unwanted at bosses because of a lack of party skills and lack of damage. The problem is that there's nothing that their class offers to be happy about.

Funny how the two arguing that there's no need for balance are a Bishop and a NL, no?
jkjkjk, no flame plz

If there's nothing to be "happy" about then they don't enjoy their class and should change to another one. I never said there's no need for "balance", it's just that no matter what Nexon does people will still complain over one class' upgrades and demand upgrades to their class. Shadowers got upgraded and now that Paladins got buffed, I see a Shadower crying that the buff was "huge" and that his Shadower should be upgraded more... that is just ridiculous. Every class has its use, whether it's for training, bossing, fun, etc... if you make every class good at everything then there is no point.

BTW, NLs have a lot of useless skills.

Xakris

2009-12-29, 04:05 PM

I will love my F/P when this come to GMS :]

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 04:09 PM

[color=#a000e0]Paladins are stronger than Bowmasters on lightning/fire/holy weak mobs, eg. Anego (3500%/s), the Regret mobs (3250%/s), Lightning/Holy-only (2330%/s), maybe Fire-only (2175%/s). Weaker on Ice and anything neutral (1550-1700%/s). Night Lords have 2295%/s and I think BMs are around there too.

Where are you getting these numbers from? 3500% on anego? Even if she is lightning and holy weak, from what I understand , you can only have 2 charges on at once, and 580*1.5*1.25*1.5*1.5 is only2446%

RIPGobies

2009-12-29, 04:13 PM

Nice update for Paladins. I was thinking of creating either a Paladin or Hero in the future. xD I think Dark Knights need an update on Zerk. They're pretty much screwed at Pink Bean/Grandpa/any other boss that deals more than the 50% they have to hold for zerk. Also, maybe some weapon speed editing would be nice. Change some of those spears to normal and skis to fast. Wishful thinking and probably won't ever happen but I think it sucks they have to depend on SI to keep up with Hero's.

KaidaTan

2009-12-29, 04:14 PM

Add a speed increase to Berserk. +2 speed on top of Booster. That would make it stronger without actually making the multiplier any crazier, and also effectively bring about the 4th job speed increase you want.

Of course, there's the problem of hitting the cap...

I actually think it might be additive and composition-like.
BaseDamage * (HolyCharge + LitCharge-100)/100 * (1 + (HolyAdvantage + LitAdvantage)/2)

Charges normally cancel... so I think they might be applied as the same step in the damage calculation. In order to have two charges stack, the simplest way would be to add one charge to the other.
That'd work too. That'd make it 1611% (as opposed to 1726%). That's just fine. In fact, that'd be ideal.

Stereo

2009-12-29, 04:16 PM

Where are you getting these numbers from? 3500% on anego? Even if she is lightning and holy weak, from what I understand , you can only have 2 charges on at once, and 580*1.5*1.25*1.5*1.5 is only2446%

Percent per second with a normal weapon, because TT and Hurricane are not the same speed as Blast you can't really compare directly (1377% and 232% per attack respectively, with SE)

Hands down my DK has had the most useless skillbook in 3rd job, roughly 70 useless SP. My Paladin only had about 61 (31 with this change to Lightning), and my NL had less than 20.

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 04:29 PM

Percent per second with a normal weapon, because TT and Hurricane are not the same speed as Blast you can't really compare directly (1377% and 232% per attack respectively, with SE)
Hands down my DK has had the most useless skillbook in 3rd job, roughly 70 useless SP. My Paladin only had about 61 (31 with this change to Lightning), and my NL had less than 20.

Ahh right, DPS, that makes much more sense. Now I seem silly not realising it :P. I take it thats with fast(2) weapon?

Anywho, lets all stop guessing on what paladin charges do until someone with a KMST account actually plays around with it.

Stereo

2009-12-29, 04:34 PM

Ahh right, DPS, that makes much more sense. Now I seem silly not realising it :P. I take it thats with fast(2) weapon?

When I say "Normal" I mean 6 (-booster = 4), the speed most 2h swords are. With a faster weapon the dps goes up.

Lozmaster

2009-12-29, 04:43 PM

When I say "Normal" I mean 6 (-booster = 4), the speed most 2h swords are. With a faster weapon the dps goes up.

Oh even better then, didn't see you saying normal weapon. :P

DeanNim

2009-12-29, 04:52 PM

I'm starting to be worried for Mages. It seems like KMS doesn't realize what the real problem with them is. I hope they end up reworking the magic damage formula because these updates aren't doing any justice for Mages' bossing DPS. Also, Thunderbolt really needs a damage boost to compare with Fire Arrow.

I'm loving all the Bandit changes though. I think I may have to start leveling my baby level 26 Bandit. :f3:

Need i remind you that fire mages are supposed to be the strongest out of all mages ? They failed to achieve this with 4th job.

Keyword : supposed.

Bribery

2009-12-29, 05:07 PM

Need i remind you that fire mages are supposed to be the strongest out of all mages ? They failed to achieve this with 4th job.

Keyword : supposed.

And I/Ls are supposed to be better mobbers. Fire Arrow on 4 monsters > Thunderbolt on 6 monsters. Why would anyone make an I/L Wizard when F/P beat them on single target AND mobs? Furthermore, they have access to Poison Brace to train faster than any class.

Hazzy

2009-12-29, 05:53 PM

I/L can freeze.
Although that aspect could be improved.

Moonlapse

2009-12-29, 05:55 PM

I'm still holding out for buccaneer updates. Nice buff to pallys though.

WayOfTime

2009-12-29, 06:05 PM

What I think of how the paladins are supposed to go with their charges is this: ((Lit_charge-1)+(Holy_charge-1)+1)*damage percentage. Since Lit is 125%, and Holy is 150%, it would be 175%. What do you think? Dang, already posted: just spotted it.

Kabanaw

2009-12-29, 06:11 PM

Need i remind you that fire mages are supposed to be the strongest out of all mages ? They failed to achieve this with 4th job.

Keyword : supposed.

I'm gunna need a source for this because no where does it say this is the case.

F/Ps have the strongest 2nd job attack

I/Ls have the strongest 3rd job attack

F/Ps have a stronger single target skill and weaker summon in 4th, and have slightly better DPS

DeanNim

2009-12-29, 06:13 PM

most fire wizards dont add brace. unless they are pizards.

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 06:26 PM

I'm gunna need a source for this because no where does it say this is the case.

F/Ps have the strongest 2nd job attack

I/Ls have the strongest 3rd job attack

F/Ps have a stronger single target skill and weaker summon in 4th, and have slightly better DPS

Uh, pretty sure explosion is stronger than ice strike now.

most fire wizards dont add brace. unless they are pizards.

They don't if they're retarded. There is absolutely no reason to do arrow in 3x and then brace in 4x with or without this change.

Styles

2009-12-29, 06:28 PM

Isnt the problem with paladins that the dmg cap is 200k? I mean with apples they could easly make over 200k @ bosses right? and that would mean bad dps?

DeanNim

2009-12-29, 06:44 PM

Uh, pretty sure explosion is stronger than ice strike now.

They don't if they're retarded. There is absolutely no reason to do arrow in 3x and then brace in 4x with or without this change.

The skills he mentioned is,

- Fire arrow, strongest 2nd job attack

- Thunderspear, strongest 3rd job attk.

- Paralyze is stronger than CL but elquines is weaker(due to it being ice based).

....

I used to be fire wizard are most guides/suggestions says fire arrow is better than brace. Experience > thoughts

EDIT: wtf dude, you dont know anything about mages. Fire wizards would most likely add brace at 6x unless they are pizards. some dont even add it at all...

JoeTang

2009-12-29, 06:57 PM

- Thunderspear, strongest 3rd job attk.

Thunder Spear sucks. Composition is the strongest 3rd job attack.

You don't get Brace after Fire Arrow because if you've spent your SP on Fire Arrow, you're using Fire Arrow to train. If you want to train with Brace, Fire Arrow is useless so you don't add points until later.

DeanNim

2009-12-29, 07:07 PM

you'll have only 10sp into brace after maxing arrow o.O

and afaik, before 4th job, thunder spear is the best there is.... and slow...

Note : people who only max brace are called pizards(term since beta iirc).. Im talking about fire wizards here..

Phoenix

2009-12-29, 07:16 PM

Just wow for paladins.

Threaten being % based= win for EVERYONE.

Dual charge, if it is indeed multiplicative, does shun heroes in most circumstances. If the only get the lightning attribute though, that seems more reasonable. I don't see the reason to increase charge power AND implement dual charge.

Brb making pally as 2nd char.

Sylphior

2009-12-29, 07:18 PM

*takes off glasses slowly and dramatically* oh...my...god...

Using Lightning with other charges!? that sounds so much better now >.< hopefully we'll get these rebalances SOON.

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 07:21 PM

The skills he mentioned is,

- Fire arrow, strongest 2nd job attack

- Thunderspear, strongest 3rd job attk.

- Paralyze is stronger than CL but elquines is weaker(due to it being ice based).

You tell me i don't know anything about mages when you're the one saying thunderspear is the strongest 3rd job attack? What a joke.

He didn't even mention specific skills. He just said "X class has the strongest attack". It's true i jumped the gun and thought he meant mob skill in 3rd job, but damn dude.

I used to be fire wizard are most guides/suggestions says fire arrow is better than brace. Experience > thoughts

EDIT: wtp dude, you dont know anything about mages. Fire wizards would most likely add brace at 6x unless they are pizards. some dont even add it at all...

Yeah? The way i see it brace is useless to train until mid 5x when you can start hitting stormbreakers/death teddies. What are you going to do till then? Magic claw things to death? Do tell me the benefit of maxing one skill over the other, and why maxing both in the order i posted before is not the best choice.

Devil

2009-12-29, 07:27 PM

If there's nothing to be "happy" about then they don't enjoy their class and should change to another one. I never said there's no need for "balance", it's just that no matter what Nexon does people will still complain over one class' upgrades and demand upgrades to their class. Shadowers got upgraded and now that Paladins got buffed, I see a Shadower crying that the buff was "huge" and that his Shadower should be upgraded more... that is just ridiculous. Every class has its use, whether it's for training, bossing, fun, etc... if you make every class good at everything then there is no point.

BTW, NLs have a lot of useless skills.I would like to see your reaction about liking and enjoying your class if Nexon Korea decided for rebalancing that BM's & MM's Sharp Eyes shouldn't be a party skill anymore... :f3:

Anyway, back on-topic, when is this patch going to be implemented on the kMSt? Or is that already the case?

Russt

2009-12-29, 07:29 PM

Looks like they're making PB more doable...

Currently, max touch damage is 24565.
With Threaten, Combo Barrier, and Magic Shield, max touch damage is 7861.

There's a thought...

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 07:33 PM

Looks like they're making PB more doable...

Currently, max touch damage is 24565.
With Threaten, Combo Barrier, and Magic Shield, max touch damage is 7861.

There's a thought...

Wasn't magic shield the one that only affects magic attacks?

Bribery

2009-12-29, 07:41 PM

Wasn't magic shield the one that only affects magic attacks?

Magical Resistance is -20% magic damage. Magic Shield is -30% damage for 20 seconds, with a 40 second cooldown.

JoeTang

2009-12-29, 07:55 PM

I would like to see your reaction about liking and enjoying your class if Nexon Korea decided for rebalancing that BM's & MM's Sharp Eyes shouldn't be a party skill anymore... :f3:

Anyway, back on-topic, when is this patch going to be implemented on the kMSt? Or is that already the case?

What? Are you kidding me? You think that your oh so mighty Shadowers should be just as strong as Paladins with Elemental Advantage? Who are you trying to kid?
Your argument doesn't even make sense. Every class is supposed to have some sort of role. Sharp Eyes is supposed to be a party buff. I'm sure BMs wouldn't think of it as too big of a loss if they changed Sharp Eyes to be a player buff, making them the second strongest single target DPS characters in the game, and Marksmen being not far behind.
That's not even rebalancing. This concept requires other characters have some party buffs to make their contributions. Night Lords suck the pomegranate without SE. Might as well not have them anymore if you're not giving them SE because they can't possible contribute anything to the party on a run in such a case when there's every other alternative for damage.
Shadowers weren't meant to be the strongest characters in the game. Why would you even think that? A thief with a dagger is supposed to match hit for hit with a Warrior carry a sword?

Moonlapse

2009-12-29, 08:15 PM

What? Are you kidding me? You think that your oh so mighty Shadowers should be just as strong as Paladins with Elemental Advantage? Who are you trying to kid?
Your argument doesn't even make sense. Every class is supposed to have some sort of role. Sharp Eyes is supposed to be a party buff. I'm sure BMs wouldn't think of it as too big of a loss if they changed Sharp Eyes to be a player buff, making them the second strongest single target DPS characters in the game, and Marksmen being not far behind.
That's not even rebalancing. This concept requires other characters have some party buffs to make their contributions. Night Lords suck the pomegranate without SE. Might as well not have them anymore if you're not giving them SE because they can't possible contribute anything to the party on a run in such a case when there's every other alternative for damage.
Shadowers weren't meant to be the strongest characters in the game. Why would you even think that? A thief with a dagger is supposed to match hit for hit with a Warrior carry a sword?

The problem with each class having different roles in maple is that classes that aren't attackers are usually looked down at and are not treated well. Attacking classes get praise words such as "godly class", and then support classes are referred to as "mules". That word in of itself shows the problem with playing a support class in maple.

Hazzy

2009-12-29, 08:22 PM

Then the answer is clear: don't make pure attacking classes (COUGHNLCOUGH), or pure training/buff classes (COUGHBISHOPSCOUGH).

Takebacker

2009-12-29, 08:28 PM

A thief with a dagger is supposed to match hit for hit with a Warrior carry a sword?

So then where does the pirate who can punch the s'hit out of everything fall? ;-;

Stereo

2009-12-29, 08:33 PM

Devil

2009-12-29, 08:47 PM

What? Are you kidding me? You think that your oh so mighty Shadowers should be just as strong as Paladins with Elemental Advantage? Who are you trying to kid? Did anyone say that? No... Did I say that? No... where did you get that statement from? o.0

Your argument doesn't even make sense. Every class is supposed to have some sort of role. Sharp Eyes is supposed to be a party buff. I'm sure BMs wouldn't think of it as too big of a loss if they changed Sharp Eyes to be a player buff, making them the second strongest single target DPS characters in the game, and Marksmen being not far behind.
That's not even rebalancing. This concept requires other characters have some party buffs to make their contributions. Night Lords suck the pomegranate without SE. Might as well not have them anymore if you're not giving them SE because they can't possible contribute anything to the party on a run in such a case when there's every other alternative for damage.I replied on mr. lvl200 Nightlord who was talking about damage being unimportant in maple. As (hypothetical) joke I replied that if he would feel the same about that statement when there wouldn't be Sharp Eyes anymore for NL's. And now you're saying damage -IS- the reason for NL's to exist and attack me for claiming the exact same... I think something went wrong here? o.0

Shadowers weren't meant to be the strongest characters in the game.Again, who's talking about -the- strongest character in game game? o.0

There is a difference between being the strongest character in-game, and doing 50% of the damage of another character when both are lvl200, let alone ArchMages who do like 30% the damage of a Corsair at lvl200... Who is talking about -the- strongest character there? All some classes want is to close the gap of the 300% damage difference...

Why would you even think that? A thief with a dagger is supposed to match hit for hit with a Warrior carry a sword?Yeah that's the problem in maple... 15 kilogram two-handed swords can be swung around in the air twice as fast (Brandish / Blast) then daggers of 250 gram (Assassinate)... explain that to me please? o.0

Aaaaaanyway, yeah, just let's all wait till we get some more details on how Paladin's dual charge exactly works... :)

Theshinji

2009-12-29, 09:25 PM

Now I seem silly

You ARE silly <3

Fiel

2009-12-29, 09:30 PM

It's too bad Threaten only works on physical damage.

By physical damage do you mean touch damage? I didn't think Threaten also affected enemy skills also classified as physical.

Stereo

2009-12-29, 09:34 PM

It works on Yeti's stomp last I looked, so it should be anything physical.

Conciente

2009-12-29, 09:57 PM

I replied on mr. lvl200 Nightlord who was talking about damage being unimportant in maple. As (hypothetical) joke I replied that if he would feel the same about that statement when there wouldn't be Sharp Eyes anymore for NL's. And now you're saying damage -IS- the reason for NL's to exist and attack me for claiming the exact same... I think something went wrong here? o.0

Damage is NOT important in this game. It's just pretty numbers that some people masturbate to... for whatever reason. You don't need godly damage to get to 200, which should be the goal for any person playing this game. With that said, making SE a passive skill for Archers wouldn't affect me in the slightest... why would it? If you only like characters for their damage output, make a Corsair. If you have fun with your Shadower, WHY DO YOU CARE THAT YOU ARE "pomegranate" COMPARED TO OTHERS? Why even compare yourself? Just have fun and ignore EVERYTHING that happens around you. That's an advice to take in real life, too.

Russt

2009-12-29, 10:05 PM

By physical damage do you mean touch damage? I didn't think Threaten also affected enemy skills also classified as physical.

It affects monster->PADamage; I don't think it affects monster->attack->PADamage. However, I think if there is no PADamage specified for the attack, and it's not magic, it'll work off monster->PADamage, so Threaten would affect those skills.

It might affect all physical damage, though.

But if it's a magic attack, there's another combo that's potentially broken: Combo Barrier + Magic Shield + Magic Resistance. Depending on how these things interact with each other, it might result in everyone taking 44.8%, 35%, or 20% (!) of the original damage.

SethElite

2009-12-29, 11:50 PM

Gawd. Now I want a FP, Dit, WK, and Slinger.

FUUUUU-
Too much work.

Shoob

2009-12-30, 12:07 AM

Damage is NOT important in this game. It's just pretty numbers that some people masturbate to... for whatever reason. You don't need godly damage to get to 200, which should be the goal for any person playing this game. With that said, making SE a passive skill for Archers wouldn't affect me in the slightest... why would it? If you only like characters for their damage output, make a Corsair. If you have fun with your Shadower, WHY DO YOU CARE THAT YOU ARE "pomegranate" COMPARED TO OTHERS? Why even compare yourself? Just have fun and ignore EVERYTHING that happens around you. That's an advice to take in real life, too.

Some people have fun dealing higher damage.

Also, ignore everything that happens around you and what other people think of you? That's hardly real life advice I'd say.

Stereo

2009-12-30, 01:23 AM

It affects monster->PADamage; I don't think it affects monster->attack->PADamage. However, I think if there is no PADamage specified for the attack, and it's not magic, it'll work off monster->PADamage, so Threaten would affect those skills.

Well, where's a good place to test that? I don't really know which skills have their own PADamage.

Cyanne

2009-12-30, 01:32 AM

It affects monster->PADamage; I don't think it affects monster->attack->PADamage. However, I think if there is no PADamage specified for the attack, and it's not magic, it'll work off monster->PADamage, so Threaten would affect those skills.

It might affect all physical damage, though.

But if it's a magic attack, there's another combo that's potentially broken: Combo Barrier + Magic Shield + Magic Resistance. Depending on how these things interact with each other, it might result in everyone taking 44.8%, 35%, or 20% (!) of the original damage.

It actually does affect all physical damage, at least if it works the same way as monsters' own physical attack up buffs. An easy place to see this is when red nirg uses att up. All the bosses' physical attack damage goes up, such as hsalf's attacks, but you can see magic damage stay the same, like with rellik's arrow rain and stun.

Russt

2009-12-30, 01:57 AM

Well, where's a good place to test that? I don't really know which skills have their own PADamage.

Pretty much anything that isn't magic, I think. But definitely any physical attack whose damage doesn't match touch damage.

It actually does affect all physical damage, at least if it works the same way as monsters' own physical attack up buffs. An easy place to see this is when red nirg uses att up. All the bosses' physical attack damage goes up, such as hsalf's attacks, but you can see magic damage stay the same, like with rellik's arrow rain and stun.

Hm... okay. Yeah, that's probably right.
(For the record, all four of Hsalf's attacks do have their own PADamage attribute set at 610, which happens to be the same as his PADamage.)

kencando

2009-12-30, 02:20 AM

Animation for Fire Arrow (Now is similar to flame wizard's)

Lvl 40:
http://spadow.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/n-2101004-effectcharlevel40.gif?w=101&h=163

Lvl 50:
http://spadow.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/n-2101004-effectcharlevel50.gif?w=137&h=221

Animation for steal:
http://spadow.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/n-4201004-effect0.gif?w=303&h=72

Credits to Spadow

Hazzy

2009-12-30, 02:24 AM

I have never had a bandit over level 22. LF>current steal animation.

Ew @ fire arrow. D:

Stereo

2009-12-30, 02:28 AM

Pretty much anything that isn't magic, I think. But definitely any physical attack whose damage doesn't match touch damage.

I don't know which attacks are magic and which are physical, though...

Russt

2009-12-30, 02:42 AM

I don't know which attacks are magic and which are physical, though...

Go with squid ink. It's low damage, too, which is convenient for testing.

Styles

2009-12-30, 08:09 AM

Damage is NOT important in this game. It's just pretty numbers that some people masturbate to... for whatever reason. You don't need godly damage to get to 200, which should be the goal for any person playing this game. With that said, making SE a passive skill for Archers wouldn't affect me in the slightest... why would it? If you only like characters for their damage output, make a Corsair. If you have fun with your Shadower, WHY DO YOU CARE THAT YOU ARE "pomegranate" COMPARED TO OTHERS? Why even compare yourself? Just have fun and ignore EVERYTHING that happens around you. That's an advice to take in real life, too.
I didn't read eveything but he my goal is still to have fun.

Alloy

2009-12-30, 09:59 AM

OH BOY OH BOY. They are really making all skills useful! There's still hope.

Damage is NOT important in this game. It's just pretty numbers that some people masturbate to... for whatever reason. You don't need godly damage to get to 200, which should be the goal for any person playing this game. With that said, making SE a passive skill for Archers wouldn't affect me in the slightest... why would it? If you only like characters for their damage output, make a Corsair. If you have fun with your Shadower, WHY DO YOU CARE THAT YOU ARE "pomegranate" COMPARED TO OTHERS? Why even compare yourself? Just have fun and ignore EVERYTHING that happens around you. That's an advice to take in real life, too.

I'm with you partially, and partially against.

Yeah, it's fun and all that. But then there's a little problem, and it's that damage output is what makes people accept you to boss runs. And let's face it, as a NL, without SE, you'd be ditched.

However, on the solo side, yeah, it's fantastic to play your way and all that. Fun is the main reason to play, and you achieve it however you want.

Kabanaw

2009-12-30, 10:10 AM

I'm defenitely for playing the way I want. I knowingly cap my secondary stat so high that some people would tell me to start over because I've ruined my character; My level 135 AM has 103 base luk, my 83 Bandit has 120 base dex, and my slinger will be capping around 90.

However, never having good damage or worthwhile buffs excludes you from some of the most fun parts of the game, mainly bossing. If you're lucky, you can get into boss runs on any class, but it's generally kept to high damage output classes and those with useful buffs. Buccs have a useful skill for Heroes, so they're kind of accepted, but AMs, Shadowers, and Paladins get the shaft. I do enjoy playing my character, but I want to be able to go on a boss run and be helpful. And I do make other characters; I've got 6 already. But I've had my AM since I started playing 4 years ago, and I want to be able to boss on it.

Dusk

2009-12-30, 10:31 AM

Go with squid ink. It's low damage, too, which is convenient for testing.

How can you test anything with an attack that always does 1 damage? Unless this makes it miss?

King

2009-12-30, 11:04 AM

nice buff for threaten but i think the only way for pally to be useful is to change their elemental charges to party buffs...

i mean it doesn't need to be full +120% dmg and 150% elemental fire buff...it can be like 105% dmg buff and 120% elemental, and only pally get full buff...

i really like the concept of pally but they are so weak in maple

Tikey

2009-12-30, 11:40 AM

Still waiting for changes in Mana Reflection and Infinity. Two buffs I really want to utilize but can't because they suck so much. >_>

Dusk

2009-12-30, 11:53 AM

Stereo

2009-12-30, 12:14 PM

How can you test anything with an attack that always does 1 damage? Unless this makes it miss?

Cut back on defensive equips, with 250 def it was easy to test. With my normal 495 def they just did 1 damage like you say.

Without threaten: 85-92 approx.
With threaten: 40-46 approx.

So yeah, Threaten affects any physical attack.

Julliant

2009-12-30, 12:26 PM

If there's a skill that can cancel super WDEF up, Paladins should get it.

byakugan

2009-12-30, 01:52 PM

If there's a skill that can cancel super WDEF up, Paladins should get it.

Sorry to break your bubble but Heroes already have Armor crash which would be the one to cancel super weapon defense. Knights/Paladins get Magic Crash instead.

KaidaTan

2009-12-30, 03:11 PM

Sorry to break your bubble but Heroes already have Armor crash which would be the one to cancel super weapon defense. Knights/Paladins get Magic Crash instead.
I would like it if the three Crashes had some kind of use. As it is, they're all entirely eclipsed by Dispel, which is stupid.

Russt

2009-12-30, 04:24 PM

How can you test anything with an attack that always does 1 damage? Unless this makes it miss?

Take off your defense.

Edit: Seems I was late.

Moonlapse

2009-12-30, 05:46 PM

Interensting new knuckles.

MysticHLE

2009-12-30, 06:10 PM

I would like it if the three Crashes had some kind of use. As it is, they're all entirely eclipsed by Dispel, which is stupid.

To my knowledge and observation, the current crashes work for the version of defense ups that are not super (level 1 and 2). However, Dispel will not work. Still, not really that useful enough to get people's attention to bring even a Hero sometimes. >.>

IllegallySane

2009-12-30, 06:58 PM

I was bored, and crunched the numbers.

-20% monster accuracy from Threaten is gonna give about 2-3% higher miss rate. Really nothing to speak of.

Changing the monster atk from -20 to -20% is the main advantage.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/1530/threatencomp.jpg
If a monster did 5000, it now does about 3300, if it did 8000 it does 5100, and so on.

This makes it about a 56.25% increase in effective player HP, not quite as good as HB - but they can be used on the same monster, going to 250% base hp (5000 base hp => 12500 max hit) It's too bad Threaten only works on physical damage.

You know, I suddenly got an insane idea. Seeing your chart it could be possible that Threaten is so powerful that ranged attackers TOUCHING the boss is actually safer than taking a magical bolt of lightning to the face? That... that can make for some hilarious scenarios. This is based on the idea of Threaten always being present on a boss, which is actually helps more than one party. I.E. you bring a single Paladin for the sole purpose of weakening a boss so everyone can touch the boss and take -20% less damage. No need for Arans and Evans in every party. The Paladin does it "raid-wide". Paladins are the raid-wide physical Combo Barrier/Bulls-Eye/Blinder. :goggle:

KaidaTan

2009-12-30, 07:00 PM

To my knowledge and observation, the current crashes work for the version of defense ups that are not super (level 1 and 2). However, Dispel will not work. Still, not really that useful enough to get people's attention to bring even a Hero sometimes. >.>
Dispel does work on those things. Bishops at Horntail and my friend at Zakum do it all the time. Dispel works on all four different buffs, in fact.

Russt

2009-12-30, 07:06 PM

You know, I suddenly got an insane idea. Seeing your chart it could be possible that Threaten is so powerful that ranged attackers TOUCHING the boss is actually safer than taking a magical bolt of lightning to the face? That... that can make for some hilarious scenarios. This is based on the idea of Threaten always being present on a boss, which is actually helps more than one party. I.E. you bring a single Paladin for the sole purpose of weakening a boss so everyone can touch the boss and take -20% less damage. No need for Arans and Evans in every party. The Paladin does it "raid-wide". Paladins are the raid-wide physical Combo Barrier/Bulls-Eye/Blinder. :goggle:

That's easy to figure out. If magic attack is stronger than 80% of physical attack, touch damage is better to take. You can find those numbers anywhere.

For example, PB has 1700 physical attack and 1200 magic. 1200 is less than 80% of 1700, so magic damage is still lower even with Threaten.

It's still going to help out a ton with melee classes though.

Edit: And physical ranged attacks of course. How could I forget that.

Stereo

2009-12-30, 07:16 PM

Paladins are the raid-wide physical Combo Barrier/Bulls-Eye/Blinder. :goggle:

That reminds me... is Blind actually at all useful? You know, the Bowman skill?

Cause -20, or even -20% monster accuracy, from Threaten, is barely enough to matter. Monster accuracy is the quotient in a miss rate, so effectively you get 25% more misses. If you were getting hit 10% of the time, you now get 12.5%. If you were getting 50%, it's 62.5%. If it's -20, then it's obviously less effective - most bosses have 200-250, so it's only gonna be about a 10% increase in miss rate.

And as such, it barely matters on a Warrior. Right now, wearing half a dozen equips that have avoid bonuses, I have just over 90 avoid. I don't get better than 8% miss rates on any major bosses. My base avoid is only around 20.

If it was a 20% increased chance to miss then it might do some good in general, but as it is I can't see the Blind effect being much good.

Russt

2009-12-30, 07:31 PM

Wait.

Is Threaten fully effective on bosses? Or is it like PG where it gets halved?

Alloy

2009-12-30, 07:45 PM

Sorry to break your bubble but Heroes already have Armor crash which would be the one to cancel super weapon defense. Knights/Paladins get Magic Crash instead.

I remember that was the intention with shadow meso, from hermits. At least the current description still names it. Of course, it doesn't work AT ALL. Not that it should, or anything... Well, maybe ignore it, but still doesn't.

ArbalistMaster

2009-12-30, 08:34 PM

That reminds me... is Blind actually at all useful? You know, the Bowman skill?

Cause -20, or even -20% monster accuracy, from Threaten, is barely enough to matter. Monster accuracy is the quotient in a miss rate, so effectively you get 25% more misses. If you were getting hit 10% of the time, you now get 12.5%. If you were getting 50%, it's 62.5%. If it's -20, then it's obviously less effective - most bosses have 200-250, so it's only gonna be about a 10% increase in miss rate.

And as such, it barely matters on a Warrior. Right now, wearing half a dozen equips that have avoid bonuses, I have just over 90 avoid. I don't get better than 8% miss rates on any major bosses. My base avoid is only around 20.

If it was a 20% increased chance to miss then it might do some good in general, but as it is I can't see the Blind effect being much good.

I personally don't have blind yet, but I know a few people that do ... From what they tell me and considering archers have relatively low miss rates normally, blind helps a ton more than the 25% more misses. it's probably a flat miss chance.

Julliant

2009-12-30, 08:47 PM

Sorry to break your bubble but Heroes already have Armor crash which would be the one to cancel super weapon defense. Knights/Paladins get Magic Crash instead.

I am aware of Armor Crash, but I still think Paladins should have the ability to break super defenses.

Heroes are used in bosses frequently enough, and though they need improvements just like most of the adventurers, I don't think they need Super Armor Crash. Make Enrage a party skill possibly?

Baklava

2009-12-30, 08:51 PM

Simple solution.

Dragon Knight's Power Crash = De-buff damage reflect
White Knight's Magic Crash = De-buff super magic defense
Crusader's Armor Crash = De-buff super weapon defense

everyone wins.

Julliant

2009-12-30, 08:55 PM

Of course I'm not going to throw a rage if Heroes do end up with Super Armor Crash, but for Paladins to be useful in bosses, Mages would have to be considered a serious attack force, otherwise no one would bother with Super Magic Crash. No one takes Mages in for bosses so I don't see why Paladins would be needed.

Dual

2009-12-30, 08:55 PM

Wait.

Is Threaten fully effective on bosses? Or is it like PG where it gets halved?

From what I've seen, it's fully effective, as effective as -20 def and attack gets. The % based of it makes it kick so much ass I'm amazed. Add this to your godly damage reduction charts Russt, we might be able to break nearly 10% damage on everything thanks to this thing.

What in hell happened to my class?
Now I'm godly overpowered on Anego and the Regret mobs, and better in other spots, to the point of being able to 1h almost anything before TT that has a weakness. The only thing that sucks about this is the fact that everyone forgets that most bosses are elementally resistant, meaning you can't utilize the added charge for damage. I'm kinda disappointed. I wanted Paladins to be stronger, but I didn't want something like this. More damage to my skills would have been fine, not just making the entire idea of charges go backwards and make it so I'm dual-wielding elements for the sake of using them when I don't even have to.

Baklava

2009-12-30, 09:00 PM

From what I've seen, it's fully effective, as effective as -20 def and attack gets. The % based of it makes it kick so much ass I'm amazed. Add this to your godly damage reduction charts Russt, we might be able to break nearly 10% damage on everything thanks to this thing.

What in hell happened to my class?
Now I'm godly overpowered on Anego and the Regret mobs, and better in other spots, to the point of being able to 1h almost anything before TT that has a weakness. The only thing that sucks about this is the fact that everyone forgets that most bosses are elementally resistant, meaning you can't utilize the added charge for damage. I'm kinda disappointed. I wanted Paladins to be stronger, but I didn't want something like this. More damage to my skills would have been fine, not just making the entire idea of charges go backwards and make it so I'm dual-wielding elements for the sake of using them when I don't even have to.

Don't assume anything at this point.
They're not nearly finished with tweaking skills.

Chameleonic

2009-12-30, 09:02 PM

Simple solution.

Dragon Knight's Power Crash = De-buff damage reflect
White Knight's Magic Crash = De-buff super magic defense
Crusader's Armor Crash = De-buff super weapon defense

everyone wins.

Add this to Boss runs and everybody wins more

Marksman's Blind = Boss Accuracy decreases by 30%
Bowmasters Hamstring = 60 less Speed

Also may be make Concentrate a stackable Party buff? lol

Side note...I REALLY hope Nexon does something about Puppet. If that worked with other people attacking it, it would be soooo much more useful.

edit...they could also give Soul Arrow a passive atk boost at certain levels to make up for the lost atk we could be getting if we used atk arrows since atk arrows dont stack with SA .

DB should work on bosses too...rush does.:f7:

Dusk

2009-12-30, 09:22 PM

Cut back on defensive equips, with 250 def it was easy to test. With my normal 495 def they just did 1 damage like you say.

Without threaten: 85-92 approx.
With threaten: 40-46 approx.

So yeah, Threaten affects any physical attack.

Oh, I thought the ink did 1 damage no matter what. My bad.

@above: that would make Puppet way too overpowered.

Dual

2009-12-30, 09:51 PM

Would Dual Lit/Holy Charge Blast look like both of them combined or just one of the two?

Moonlapse

2009-12-30, 11:30 PM

Anbody know (or wish to guess) when the next balance patch will be?

Chameleonic

2009-12-30, 11:56 PM

Fiel just posted that theres a new one now. :wink:

IllegallySane

2009-12-31, 02:05 AM

Fiel just posted that theres a new one now. :wink:

The patch is a lie. :f3:

Tay

2009-12-31, 02:35 AM

Cannnnnnnnn I see a skill table for the new Steal?
Wondering is getting 1 steal at lv30 would be a good idea or not.

Phoenix

2009-12-31, 02:37 AM

Add this to Boss runs and everybody wins more

Marksman's Blind = Boss Accuracy decreases by 30%
Bowmasters Hamstring = 60 less Speed

Also may be make Concentrate a stackable Party buff? lol

Side note...I REALLY hope Nexon does something about Puppet. If that worked with other people attacking it, it would be soooo much more useful.

edit...they could also give Soul Arrow a passive atk boost at certain levels to make up for the lost atk we could be getting if we used atk arrows since atk arrows dont stack with SA .

DB should work on bosses too...rush does.:f7:

I actually agree about DB. But i think Enrage deserves to be a party skill way more than Concentrate f3.

And on another note...I didn't realize how far saders are falling behind wk's. Especially with the elemental hot spot that is leafre.

Lozmaster

2009-12-31, 05:07 AM

The only thing that sucks about this is the fact that everyone forgets that most bosses are elementally resistant

What? No they aren't...

Of all the >level 100 bosses.

Possible to Dual charge without Elemental Advantage:
Griffey
Leviathan
Pap
Red Nirg
Zakum
Horntail
Solomon
Rex

Dual Charge with one advantage, no resistances.

Headless Horseman
Manon
Pianus
Bigfoot
BlackCrow
Relik
Hsalf
Lilynouch
Targa
Hugin
Munin

Dual Charge with double advantage:
anego.

No dual charging:

Ergoth
Dodo
Margana (Whats your paladin doing fighting this in the first place.)
Scarlion (Weak to fire, so this isn't an issue.)
Pink Bean
Ariel

Dragon breath shouldn't push bosses back in my opinion. And puppet should definatly not be able to lure stuff other people are attacking. It's already one of the most useful archer skillls there is, why should it do anymore :f1:

Dual

2009-12-31, 11:38 AM

What? No they aren't...

Of all the >level 100 bosses.

Possible to Dual charge without Elemental Advantage:
Griffey
Leviathan
Pap
Red Nirg
Zakum
Horntail
Solomon
Rex

Dual Charge with one advantage, no resistances.

Headless Horseman
Manon
Pianus
Bigfoot
BlackCrow
Relik
Hsalf
Lilynouch
Targa
Hugin
Munin

Dual Charge with double advantage:
anego.

No dual charging:

Ergoth
Dodo
Margana (Whats your paladin doing fighting this in the first place.)
Scarlion (Weak to fire, so this isn't an issue.)
Pink Bean
Ariel

Yeah, I realized that last night after I logged off just how few bosses are resistant to lightning. It works on at least making us weaker than Heroes on 1v1 by a much smaller number, around 10% rather than 30%. It also increases our damage to be stronger than Heroes on anything weak.

And on another note...I didn't realize how far saders are falling behind wk's. Especially with the elemental hot spot that is leafre.
It defintely makes up for the fact that the best place for a WK to train at level 110 is Blue Wyverns or Himes, a place they've been for 10 levels already. WKs may get a bunch of areas with Leafre, but it pretty much stops off at a certain point. I'm not sure of where Saders train, but I think Saders train in areas very similar to that. How much more powerful are WK than Sader now, thanks to this added boost to the charges? Can I get some numbers? Assume Fire and Lit using Power Strike and Slash Blast.

KaidaTan

2009-12-31, 11:54 AM

Yeah, I realized that last night after I logged off just how few bosses are resistant to lightning. It works on at least making us weaker than Heroes on 1v1 by a much smaller number, around 10% rather than 30%. It also increases our damage to be stronger than Heroes on anything weak.
No way. Any logical way it could be calculated, Pallies will end up stronger than Heroes on neutral 1v1. And that's fine by me.

Cactuar

2009-12-31, 01:27 PM

Hazzy

2009-12-31, 01:34 PM

No way. Any logical way it could be calculated, Pallies will end up stronger than Heroes on neutral 1v1. And that's fine by me.

Anyone who argues against that is just butthurt. ._.
Heroes hit unreduced damage on three mobs, Paladins deserve at least an advantage on 1v1 without having to find something weak to their elements. When there's only two or three(?) places to train from 120 to 200, you can't be nearly as choosy about where you train as you can in say, 2nd job. Even 3rd job to a degree. Not familiar with 70-100 training spots.
"Ew, that's not weak to Holy. I can't train there."
@ragingHeroes: You have Rush. Use it.

Dual

2009-12-31, 01:58 PM

Greatest damage reduction in the game: Chief Bandit with Meso Guard and Combo Barrier active while being hit by a Threatened monster in the middle of using chakra takes 11.2% damage. Can we get it to go lower, folks?

You're forgetting the Magic Shield party skill Evans have. That reduces damage by 30%. Me and Russt had a whole huge discussion about it and the godly amount of reduction.

Sinnuendo

2009-12-31, 02:01 PM

I think it's 20%, but still, that's 9.86% damage. Pretty crazy.

With Magic Resistance it's basically the same thing, just for magic.

KaidaTan

2009-12-31, 02:02 PM

You're forgetting the Magic Shield party skill Evans have. That reduces damage by 30%. Me and Russt had a whole huge discussion about it and the godly amount of reduction.
And what about their other damage reduction skill? The one that reduces magic damage taken by 20%.

Russt

2009-12-31, 02:21 PM

IllegallySane

2009-12-31, 02:41 PM

No way. Any logical way it could be calculated, Pallies will end up stronger than Heroes on neutral 1v1. And that's fine by me.

Wait. Paladins are now the #1 melee attacker with this balance patch? Que?!?! That sort of makes me want to revive my White Knight, or at least remake him.

Phoenix

2009-12-31, 02:44 PM

It defintely makes up for the fact that the best place for a WK to train at level 110 is Blue Wyverns or Himes, a place they've been for 10 levels already. WKs may get a bunch of areas with Leafre, but it pretty much stops off at a certain point. I'm not sure of where Saders train, but I think Saders train in areas very similar to that. How much more powerful are WK than Sader now, thanks to this added boost to the charges? Can I get some numbers? Assume Fire and Lit using Power Strike and Slash Blast.

Well in the past, with Aqua and Ludi being your only spots, saders had a clear upperhand. But this is no longer the case, since wk's and saders pretty much train at the same spots. Saders get a 1.4 boost for max combo, WK's would get 1.4 from fire charge+whatever how light charge is added. And coma and charge blow are pretty much similar I beleive, well I don't see coma making up for anything here at least. Add to that elemental weaknesses and the difference gets much wider.

It doesn't really matter much because 70-120 isn't exactly hard anymore, but for the sake of balance it's not doing much good there.

Cactuar

2009-12-31, 02:48 PM

Chakra... does that reduction stack multiplicatively?

If it does, way to throw hell into my ordered universe again. If not, you basically have super weapon def up. Less than 0% damage -> 1 damage.

Also, having trouble with how Cactuar came up with 11.2%...

Whoops. Hahaha, bad math on my part due to not being able to find the tables. Chakra gives 70% damage so 30% off. So it'd be: Meso guard (*.5), Chakra (*.7), Combo Barrier (*.2). I also made the mistake of doing Threaten as -20% damage when it's not really. Point is it's a huge damage reduction.

Russt

2009-12-31, 02:50 PM

Wait. Paladins are now the #1 melee attacker with this balance patch? Que?!?! That sort of makes me want to revive my White Knight, or at least remake him.

Dusk's spreadsheet says that 1h Heroes, 1h Paladins, and Spear DrKs weigh in at 105468, 78958, and 103058 DPS respectively.

Taking into account the Blast change, and dividing out the currently applied Holy Charge, base Paladin DPS is 59495.
Adding in the new Holy Charge gives 89212.
Adding in an additive Lit Charge gives 104081.
Adding in a multiplicative Lit Charge gives 111515.

Throwing elemental attributes into the mix complicates things too much, so I'll just leave it at this for now for neutral targets.

And Cactuar, GameMX's thread showed that Combo Barrier and Meso Guard results in 0.3* damage, not 0.5*0.8* damage. That's worth some consideration.

Baklava

2009-12-31, 03:09 PM

Well I guess we can finally say that Blast lives up to its name, hur dur.

Tay

2009-12-31, 03:11 PM

Ok, all this is coming to kMS on the 7th.
Says so on the website or whatever, I stole this info from Spadow.

http://spadow.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/adventurersreturn1.png?w=593&h=244

Baklava

2009-12-31, 03:12 PM

Ok, all this is coming to kMS on the 7th.
Says so on the website or whatever, I stole this info from Spadow.

http://spadow.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/adventurersreturn1.png?w=593&h=244

See you'd make people freak out if you didn't include this piece of translation.

”Purple Circle: Don’t be disappointed if you don’t see a change of your job. The transformation of the Adventurer continues!”

It's part 1.

Hazzy

2009-12-31, 03:16 PM

Cannnnnnnnn I see a skill table for the new Steal?
Wondering is getting 1 steal at lv30 would be a good idea or not.

I second this request. :[
Also curious about Endure.

Dual

2009-12-31, 03:18 PM

Well in the past, with Aqua and Ludi being your only spots, saders had a clear upperhand. But this is no longer the case, since wk's and saders pretty much train at the same spots. Saders get a 1.4 boost for max combo, WK's would get 1.4 from fire charge+whatever how light charge is added. And coma and charge blow are pretty much similar I beleive, well I don't see coma making up for anything here at least. Add to that elemental weaknesses and the difference gets much wider.

It doesn't really matter much because 70-120 isn't exactly hard anymore, but for the sake of balance it's not doing much good there.

WK don't use Charge Blow almost at all because it would be a pain in the ass to recast BOTH charges again for the sake of having 6 second stun.

IllegallySane

2009-12-31, 03:26 PM

WK don't use Charge Blow almost at all because it would be a pain in the ass to recast BOTH charges again for the sake of having 6 second stun.

Don't think just that. Spamming Charge Blow sometimes feels cleaner than Slash Blasting away. There's also the question can you Charge Blow once for every 1.5-2 Slash Blasts with the upcoming charge system? I can almost imagine a macro for it:

Fire Charge + Lightning Charge + Charge Blow. Just stand, spam, and put on your Awesome face as you see little mushrooms spin on top of every monster.

Lozmaster

2009-12-31, 03:30 PM

Don't think just that. Spamming Charge Blow sometimes feels cleaner than Slash Blasting away. There's also the question can you Charge Blow once for every 1.5-2 Slash Blasts with the upcoming charge system? I can almost imagine a macro for it:

Fire Charge + Lightning Charge + Charge Blow. Just stand, spam, and put on your Awesome face as you see little mushrooms spin on top of every monster.

Trust me on this, charge blow was useless as an attack with having to rebuff one skill. 2? No way

IllegallySane

2009-12-31, 03:32 PM

Trust me on this, charge blow was useless as an attack with having to rebuff one skill. 2? No way

But..... but I did Charge Blow right after Fire Charge and I reached 88........ (This was ~2 years ago)

Baaaaaw. Looks like I'll just remake my White Knight then. Well he DID have ~80 DEX and didn't have much bonus INT from 10-88. >_>

Dual

2009-12-31, 03:33 PM

Don't think just that. Spamming Charge Blow sometimes feels cleaner than Slash Blasting away. There's also the question can you Charge Blow once for every 1.5-2 Slash Blasts with the upcoming charge system? I can almost imagine a macro for it:

Fire Charge + Lightning Charge + Charge Blow. Just stand, spam, and put on your Awesome face as you see little mushrooms spin on top of every monster.
It sucks hard Henry. The only reason to ever use it was as a finisher when your charge was running out, using the stun to allow you to recast the buffs. In the time it takes to cast 2 charges and use charge blow, I could have killed a mob.

KaidaTan

2009-12-31, 03:59 PM

Dusk's spreadsheet says that 1h Heroes, 1h Paladins, and Spear DrKs weigh in at 105468, 78958, and 103058 DPS respectively.

Taking into account the Blast change, and dividing out the currently applied Holy Charge, base Paladin DPS is 59495.
Adding in the new Holy Charge gives 89212.
Adding in an additive Lit Charge gives 104081.
Adding in a multiplicative Lit Charge gives 111515.
Don't you think it's better to use % DPS rather than DPS from an arbitrary set of warrior gear?

Russt

2009-12-31, 04:18 PM

Don't you think it's better to use % DPS rather than DPS from an arbitrary set of warrior gear?

Good point. I was thinking there were gear differences, but Heroes and Paladins are the same in that department. DrKs aren't, but for the sake of comparison they aren't really necessary.

Lozmaster

2009-12-31, 04:31 PM

But..... but I did Charge Blow right after Fire Charge and I reached 88........ (This was ~2 years ago)

Baaaaaw. Looks like I'll just remake my White Knight then. Well he DID have ~80 DEX and didn't have much bonus INT from 10-88. >_>

Nah, don't remake it, you need charge blow maxed anyway, prior to lightning charge getting this buff, I'd seriously say everything but fire charge is virtually useless in paladins 3rd job. Lightning was only for bossing (lol) charge blow is...ehh useless until you get ACB later, then it's good, ice charge... maybe ok if you want to train at ice weak stuff now, there wasn't anything when I was at that level. I think I did charge blow after fire charge too.

Cactuar

2009-12-31, 05:32 PM

And Cactuar, GameMX's thread showed that Combo Barrier and Meso Guard results in 0.3* damage, not 0.5*0.8* damage. That's worth some consideration.

... What. So it's additive? Then that means chakra is too? Argh. I have to go test this out now. If that's the case it's (+.5) Meso Guard, (+.2) combo barrier, (+.3) chakra which adds to 100% damage reduction. That makes no sense.

zOrpheus

2009-12-31, 05:47 PM

It could just be Meso Guard that is additive; everything else that has damage reduction is probably multiplicative.

Chakra active + Combo Barrier + Meso Guard =
(.7)*(.8) - (.5) = 94% damage reduction?

Stereo

2009-12-31, 06:06 PM

Fire Charge + Lightning Charge + Charge Blow. Just stand, spam, and put on your Awesome face as you see little mushrooms spin on top of every monster.

Even a simple macro like Fire Charge + Charge Blow fails to work a big percent of the time. Really not worth it.

And with each Charge taking as long to cast as CB, it goes
341% (1 tick Slashblast)
525% (2 ticks, Fire + CB)
656% (3 ticks, Fire + Lightning + CB)

Note that 3x Slashblast = 1023% with just 1 elemental weakness. This patch destroys Charge Blow's usefulness.

Then again, as before Fire Charge is the #1 massive damage upgrade WKs get. If you have Fire, you're set until level 100+. The 20% buff just means it's always better to get it before Lightning, no matter what elemental mobs you intend to attack.

King

2009-12-31, 06:58 PM

That would just make them worse while making other classes better. Being wanted for a buff only does not make a class good.

That make no sense at all...why would being able to buff other class make the buffing class weaker?

Drk and mm are only wanted because they can cast hb and se since so many classes out dps them (especially in drk's case) and they are considered "good" class, so why not pallys?

Takebacker

2009-12-31, 07:04 PM

That make no sense at all...why would being able to buff other class make the buffing class weaker?

Because everyone else gets way stronger than they normally are while you're just as strong as you normally are.

Everyone else getting stronger while you stay the same means you're weaker.

Drk and mm are only wanted because they can cast hb and se since so many classes out dps them (especially in drk's case) and they are considered "good" class, so why not pallys?

Not a lot of classes out damage MMs. Compared to how many classes out damage paladins now.

Hazzy

2009-12-31, 07:34 PM

Not to mention how godly Dragon Knights where/are in 3rd job. Anyone who played pre4th job should remember how everyone in the upper levels of the ranks was either a cleric or DK. (COUGHTIGERCOUGHFANGBLADECOUGH)
Paladins, on the other hand, have no such advantages in any job. In 2nd they're almost equal to fighters(lolrage), but it's all down hill from there. (Until we get a Neutral resistant, Lightning weak boss, that is)

Lugin

2009-12-31, 07:36 PM

That make no sense at all...why would being able to buff other class make the buffing class weaker?

Drk and mm are only wanted because they can cast hb and se since so many classes out dps them (especially in drk's case) and they are considered "good" class, so why not pallys?

Let's take current conditions: 550% Blast and 120% Fire Charge.
That comes to 770% on neutral, and 990% on fire-weak.

Heros get 10 orbs (190%) and Brandish (520%)
That comes out 988% to 3 targets everywhere.

Say you turn Fire Charge into a standard party buff.
The Paladin's damage is the same as before.
The Hero now does 1185%(neutral) and 1778%(fire-weak) per target per Brandish.

King

2009-12-31, 07:52 PM

Because everyone else gets way stronger than they normally are while you're just as strong as you normally are.

Everyone else getting stronger while you stay the same means you're weaker.

Not a lot of classes out damage MMs. Compared to how many classes out damage paladins now.

which is exactly why pally deserves more buffs like making their charges party buffs

and I don't understand why making everybody stronger is a bad thing...I mean pb is still undefeated in gms due to the lack of dps right? So adding 140% or even 110% dmg and elemental advantage to all the attackers should help immensely

and like I suggested before, to make pally charge better than the other jobs, nexon can make only pally get the full 140% dmg buff on their charge and make the other party members only get a nerfed dmg buff that adds 110% dmg

Hazzy

2009-12-31, 08:01 PM

Making everyone stronger isn't bad. Making everyone stronger but yourself is, because turns you into a buff mule. Paladins aren't Priest.

King

2009-12-31, 08:16 PM

Making everyone stronger isn't bad. Making everyone stronger but yourself is, because turns you into a buff mule. Paladins aren't Priest.

they are not making everyone stronger but themselves...like i've suggested 4 pages ago as well as the post above you, they can make their party member get nerfed buffs and they keep the full buff for themselves...

Let's face it, Pallys will never become the king of DPS like corsairs and NL, and they will be screwed over by every major boss that has elemental resistances.

Pallys will never become training beasts like mages because they don't have ults

Therefore they will never be wanted for any boss run unless they can offer something to the party, a.k.a. party buffs...

I also suggest changing pally's armor break skill to elemental reset so their charge can actually add dps in bossing...

Pallys has been the worst class in maple for too long and i think these tiny buffs to damage is no where near enough boost to Paladins

KaidaTan

2009-12-31, 08:30 PM

Pallys has been the worst class in maple for too long and i think these tiny buffs to damage is no where near enough boost to Paladins
The boosts they just got are more than enough to make them better at 1v1 than Heroes. Considering Threaten is getting a huge increase, I consider that their "party buff" now. Finally, they're getting the boosts they need.

Hazzy

2009-12-31, 08:31 PM

Paladins get full buff. aka, no change to their DPS from now? Then giving a new buff to party members = party gets stronger, paladin doesn't.

Lugin

2009-12-31, 08:58 PM

they are not making everyone stronger but themselves...like i've suggested 4 pages ago as well as the post above you, they can make their party member get nerfed buffs and they keep the full buff for themselves...

Find a buff that currently works that way.
Because I sure can't.

I also suggest changing pally's armor break skill to elemental reset so their charge can actually add dps in bossing...

The majority of a Paladin's damage comes from the bonus for element weakness, not the charge's base multiplier.
Your suggestion shows ignorance of how Paladins get their damage.

Bomber

2009-12-31, 11:28 PM

they are not making everyone stronger but themselves...like i've suggested 4 pages ago as well as the post above you, they can make their party member get nerfed buffs and they keep the full buff for themselves...

Let's face it, Pallys will never become the king of DPS like corsairs and NL, and they will be screwed over by every major boss that has elemental resistances.

Pallys will never become training beasts like mages because they don't have ults

Therefore they will never be wanted for any boss run unless they can offer something to the party, a.k.a. party buffs...

I also suggest changing pally's armor break skill to elemental reset so their charge can actually add dps in bossing...

Pallys has been the worst class in maple for too long and i think these tiny buffs to damage is no where near enough boost to Paladins

Are the bolded actually serious?

Edit: I can think of a "major" boss other than krexel that isn't resistant to all other than PB, which screws over everything other than AMs anyway.

MysticHLE

2010-01-01, 01:54 AM

they are not making everyone stronger but themselves...like i've suggested 4 pages ago as well as the post above you, they can make their party member get nerfed buffs and they keep the full buff for themselves...

Let's face it, Pallys will never become the king of DPS like corsairs and NL, and they will be screwed over by every major boss that has elemental resistances.

Pallys will never become training beasts like mages because they don't have ults

Therefore they will never be wanted for any boss run unless they can offer something to the party, a.k.a. party buffs...

I also suggest changing pally's armor break skill to elemental reset so their charge can actually add dps in bossing...

Pallys has been the worst class in maple for too long and i think these tiny buffs to damage is no where near enough boost to Paladins

Let's just say that I'm level 171 with 89xx base attack range with MW 13 and 12 atk pot and I barely break 100k on Skeles. After the patch I will hit 200k on Anego on 12 atk pot.

Hazzy

2010-01-01, 01:58 AM

Let's just say that I'm level 171 with 89xx base attack range with MW 13 and 12 atk pot and I barely break 100k on Skeles. After the patch I will hit 200k on Anego on 12 atk pot.

Gotta love that damage cap.

What's the purpose of a damage cap? I can understand rounding down a bit if there's a limit to what the game can handle, but isn't that upwards around 2 billion? Damage cap of 100 and 200k only limits classes....
Not like there's been a working damage hack in years.

Stereo

2010-01-01, 02:05 AM

You could say it's because they're too lazy to implement real damage for several skills...

More specifically, Snipe and Sanctuary both deal up to the damage cap. The higher the cap is, the stronger they get. Probably a stupid skill design but hey. It's Nexon.