Early Guardian?

[Kevo]

Done laughing? :P

I always liked this skill... even pre 4th Job I wished I could have it. It looks cool, and has a nice effect.

Now that I have a Hero that actually has this skill, I was considering getting this skill at 150 - just after Stance. My friends have said to get either MW or Rush after Stance though.

For MW, I feel like at Bosses, I'll most likely be getting the buff from somebody else. And if I solo at Time Temple, I don't think I can kill too much faster than my current rate.

For Rush, if I maxed it there would be a 50% increase in distance traveled. I imagine this is why people choose to max this skill but the distance traveled from Level 1 Rush isn't that much is it? So 50% more distance isn't too much either? I don't know about this since I don't have it maxed.

For Guardian, I think it would be helpful for Bossing and training in general. Kind of like an extra boost to Stance, which is already a great skill. Plus, Guardian looks cool. I think on paper, it's just as good as Achilles but it has the stun and kb effects? I'm not HP washed too much so even if I got 15% reduction on a 1/1 attack, I'd probably die from the next attack anyway :P

Any comments from this idea?

[KatanaKiwi]

i maxed guardian right after mw10 (20 wasnt out at the time). before that i had lvl 10 stance, lvl 30 brandish and lvl 30 ac and lvl 1 rush. i dont regret it but both stance and rush are way more usefull.. its your own decision and it doesnt make a big difference unless you go max stuff like monster magnet etc

[Bomber]

Unless u had 1h hand sword, no.
If you do, max it later, but it your choice...

[moore4me]

I suggest you get Achillies berfore Guardian. Guardian at max works 15% of the time, although i do question that % cause it seems to activate way more often than that. Achilles on the other hand activates every time. Achilles has saved me many of times from the dreaded 1/1 attack and my autopot not activating quickly enough. I can easily see you doing Brandish>AC>Stance>Achilles>Guardian. Or maybe do 2 achillies 1 guardian per lvl if you really wanted the guardian.


::On a funny note about Guardian, I have seen Guardian activate and KB Scarlion into range members and kill them there is no way to control that except by the way you are facing::

[Shidoshi]

Achilles is better from a survival stand-point, it makes you survive bigger hits and makes 1/1 attacks better to handle.

Guardian is better for the stance effect, it makes it even less likely to be knocked off.

They are the same when it comes to saving pots, one takes away 15% of the damage all the time and the other takes away all the damage 15% of the time.

You have to weight the advantages of each and see what is better for you.

[Corn]

This is all assuming you have a one handed sword and shield, which you probably do.
I'm not that high leveled, but I dunno, 15% chance maxed success rate? That seems...kinda low.

Anyway, here are the ranges comparing the ranges in Rush (just look at the picture.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Paulos2005/Rush1.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Paulos2005/Rush5.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v132/Paulos2005/Rush10.jpg

[Kevo]

f3 Jasons, I saw your post but it seems to be deleted xD

I am a 1-handed sword user, but only because I wanted Guardian. I believe using a Night Raven Wing is somewhat less wallet emptying otherwise.

At above, I realize Rush does increase a bit but is that increase in distance worth 10 levels of SP? (My Rush is at level 1 atm, focusing on Brandish, Advance Combo, and Stance first)

From what people are saying/telling me in game, points added beyond 150 don't really matter too much since the important skills will have been maxed by then?


I suggest you get Achillies berfore Guardian. Guardian at max works 15% of the time, although i do question that % cause it seems to activate way more often than that. Achilles on the other hand activates every time. Achilles has saved me many of times from the dreaded 1/1 attack and my autopot not activating quickly enough. I can easily see you doing Brandish>AC>Stance>Achilles>Guardian. Or maybe do 2 achillies 1 guardian per lvl if you really wanted the guardian.


::On a funny note about Guardian, I have seen Guardian activate and KB Scarlion into range members and kill them there is no way to control that except by the way you are facing::

About this... I was just thinking, theoretically of course, there was a monster that always did 1000 damage. Over 20 hits from this monster, Achilles would reduce 3000 damage. Guardian, over 20 hits, would completely nullify 3 attacks which equals 3000 damage as well. Guardian has an added effect, so wouldn't it be better in more ways than Achilles?

Achilles does reduce even 1/1 damage, but the remaining HP shouldn't be significant enough to keep me alive. Correct me if I'm wrong here. I still lack quite some experience at bossing with a Hero.

The 2 points in one skill, 1 in the other sounds interesting... but I don't really know how much better it is compared to fully going either Achilles/Guardian first. I'm pretty feeble when it comes to these decisions =/.

I didn't know Guardian could KB Bosses too xD. Shouldn't be a problem if you're not facing your party members.

[KatanaKiwi]

achilles is only better then guardians when achilles lets you survive certain atks like at bigfoot

if you have 8k hp and a monster does 9k dmg then achilles will help
if you have 10k hp and a monster does 9k dmg then guardian is better.

why? well its easier to save pots with guardian since you dont have to pot at all so you always save a pot, with achilles you just take less dmg but since you overpot anyways it wont make a big diffence untill you have very high hp, or when it accidentily happens that achilles makes the difference of potting or not potting..

the reason guardian is better is because it increases
1. your stance rate
2. it avoids attacks, keeps you from breaking your dps and thus allowing you to continue attacking. i know its not a big difference but in a way guardian does have its effect on your dps.

anyways as a 1h hero you can max both, so its only a matter of when and not a matter of which. "when" is your own choice, choose for yourself, choose whatever you like

[Nikkey]

the reason guardian is better is because it increases
1. your stance rate
2. it avoids attacks, keeps you from breaking your dps and thus allowing you to continue attacking. i know its not a big difference but in a way guardian does have its effect on your dps.

Doesn't increase extremely, though. It increases by 1.6%, which is not very noticeable. Just sayin'

But yeah, all in all, there's more or less no diff as long you wear a shield all day long.

[Phoenix]

I did Guardian after MW 20, and stance, and I sort of regret not getting maxed rush earlier or maxing enrage by 180.

The pro are of course a slightly increased stance rate (91.5 as opposed to 90...) and while being seduced at HT, it'll probably save you more than a few times from a dreaded 1/1.

It doesn't work while you're on a mount though =/ And if ever you decide to grab yourself a 2handed sword because you have SI available, then it's a huge waste of 30 points.

But it's damn sexy F3 And you get a lot of :"Wtp what's that skill?"

EDIT: Oh and as for the uncontrollable KB, it is quite nasty. Especially if you're rushing BF into a corner, and have to move sides. I have killed my fair share of innocent bystanders this way....

[Kevo]

Thanks for the reply :)

I was thinking about not even getting MW20 until much later, and possibly Rush after Guardian (if I can even make it that far :( ). Is Maxed Rush really all that good? And as for Enrage, that cooldown doesn't make it all that appealing. I can't imagine it helping much for training, and only at bossing? Plus, it can be dispelled =x

[TomasLuther]

1rush, 1 ACA, 1 Brandish > Brandish > ACA > Stance is a must . After that is whatever you want.

Personally i did MW 19 > Enrage > Achilles > Guardian > Rush (lvl 28) > MW 29 ( 25 so far :P)

[MysticHLE]

I would say Rush before Guardian definitely. The extra damage and distance from Rush would not only save you an extra hit here and there, but it'll also allow you to travel faster and make that % of xHKO significantly higher. Much better than saving pots.

Another perk of having higher leveled Rush is that it also activates much farther. With level 1 Rush, activation distance is just in front of the monster. However, with max Rush, activation distance can be about 3-4 Skelegons wide.

Also, Rush distance has been increased by 20 pixels as of current KMS patch.

I'm not a Hero, but from an analytical perspective...Rush vs. Enrage would be the more careful case to consider since Enrage boosts a great deal amount of damage to the Hero...enough to offset the extra damage from Rush (but not the walking distance and time saved), and can help quite a bit during bossing when not appling. If you think about it, with Enrage and Rage's new 12 atk feature, there is no more need for you to carry warrior elixirs anymore. Having an extra +14 atk every 4 minutes can definitely speed up training and bossing (as well as your EXP gained during bossing). MW 20 is overrated for Hero since Enrage's extra attack can offset most of the average damage boosts of MW 20 even in light of Enrage's cooldown - not to mention you'll probably be partying with another class who most likely already have MW20.

Guardian, on the other hand, merely saves you pots and success is inconsistent. If anything, Achilles would help overall survival and pots saved much better. During training, having a monster being stunned or not mostly serve to save pots, since the monster's attacks will not budge you significantly to slow you down with sufficient Power Stance. After all, Guardian's 15% activation rate at level 30, when combined in light of Stance 30's 90% no KB rate...only serves an extra 1.5% (no idea how Devil's Sunrise got 1.6% from 15% of 10%...) chance in ignoring KB effect - and thus a slight boost in DPS, as KatanaKiwi pointed out. Still, pretty wasteful of 30 SP I would say.

And, as mentioned by Phoenix already, if there is SI for 2h sword, then Guardian would be a complete waste. This is why I actually chose Monster Magnet over Guardian on my Paladin, since now I have the ability to go to mobs with Rush as well as pulling entire mobs to me (VERY helpful at weird maps like Skeles and ToT and can change the entire map cycling mechanism and overall efficiency). I think it's nicer to be flexible and have a more diverse arsenal of active skills that can be used at whatever situation than just to save pots at 15% rate. Anyway, Monster Magnet is another warrior controversy all by itself that I don't really want to get into right now.

To summarize - unless you plan to level solely by BF with apples, Rush or Enrage will be a wiser choice than Guardian. And Guardian is only preferred over Achilles when if even with Achilles, you still can't tank a hit from a specific boss.

In the end, even with all this analysis to help you decide what's better, it's still your choice. You don't have the make the "best" Hero in all situations - the Hero you like is the best Hero for you. =)