Weapon Defense vs. Damage Taken

[Furnost]

I apologize in advance if this is in the wrong section...if it is please feel free to move it.

I have been horntailing for a few months now and being the main seduce bishop on the runs I can't help but have the tail cross my mind every now and then. I have seen screenshots from MSea of a Bishop w/invincible taking 24k damage, however, after talking to my friend (18x Bishop), I found out she had about 5xx weapon def and took 17k damage.

Now we both have pendants + egg so the added 2xx weapon def helps tremendously but I was just wondering if anyone had or knew of a weapon defense calculator that could let me calculate how much damage I would take from a tail hit.

Note: My friend has about 570 ish weapon defense w/Bless and I have about 500 so I am just wondering what the 70 weapon def difference would make because if I can manage a hit from the HT tail it'd make saving seduce alot easier (sorta lol).

[Stereo]

Unbuffed tail does about 18k max to someone with Invincible (dropping to 17.5k with wdef), however the wings can cast a w.atk buff which boosts them up to around 20.5k. I'm pretty sure if someone took 24k then they didn't have Invincible on.


There's no wdef calculator.

[Acim]

I believe 1 DEF = 0.5 damage taken off, but I could be wrong and I probably am.

[Cheesecake]

im pretty sure it's every 3 def take off 1 damage

[Takebacker]

Unbuffed tail does about 18k max to someone with Invincible (dropping to 17.5k with wdef), however the wings can cast a w.atk buff which boosts them up to around 20.5k. I'm pretty sure if someone took 24k then they didn't have Invincible on.


There's no wdef calculator.

I've seen the tail do something like 33k damage somewhere...i'm trying to remember where. D:

[Stereo]

I've seen the tail do something like 33k damage somewhere...i'm trying to remember where. D:

The original Horntail was a lot stronger, his tail does only about 29k buffed now as far as I know. It's a lot lower for Bishops because Invincible is a straight 30% reduction to damage.

[Harrisonized]

Interesting how Maple's been out this long and nobody bothered finding out the wep def formula. Most of the other formulas have been found already.

[Hotshot]

Interesting how Maple's been out this long and nobody bothered finding out the wep def formula. Most of the other formulas have been found already.
It's because everyone cares about doing as much damage as possible, but not a whole lot of people care about how much damage they take. :wink:

[Russt]

Oh yes they do.

No one bothers because monster damage doesn't vary much, so after a bunch of people take hits from the same monster they more or less know that squids do ~1.5k touch damage and etc.

[Hotshot]

Oh yes they do.

No one bothers because monster damage doesn't vary much, so after a bunch of people take hits from the same monster they more or less know that squids do ~1.5k touch damage and etc.

Fine, I misspoke. Nobody cares about the role of defence in the damage they take, compared to the role of weapon/magic attack and stats in the damage they do. :f3:

[Stereo]

Interesting how Maple's been out this long and nobody bothered finding out the wep def formula. Most of the other formulas have been found already.

It's not an easy one to figure out from ingame tests, a lot of things affect it
- monster atk
- player defense
- player str
- player class
- player level

Only 1 of these (defense) is easy to vary without affecting the rest, and there's no stat screen showing how much damage monsters do so the only way to find out is to keep bumping the monster until you've seen the highest and lowest damage it does, which takes longer and costs more than most other ingame formulas.


The trouble is also magnitude - only the monster atk has a noticeable effect (+130 monster atk = ~3k damage for Horntail) while the rest are tiny (+200 defense = ~90 damage difference, +1000 str = ~200 damage difference, +200 levels = ~200 difference again, and the classes affect how these numbers interact - a beginner's str barely changes the damage they take.)

[Russt]

Cleric.

[banditcom]

You need to be about level 178+ with hp gear, because you also need enough mp.

Best just to have a bishop+drk on both sides, while the one on the left goes up to the middle dividing crack to heal.

[XtremeBeast]

I believe 1 DEF = 0.5 damage taken off, but I could be wrong and I probably am.


im pretty sure it's every 3 def take off 1 damage

The real answer is somewhere between.

I know max iron body (+40 wdef) saves ~16hp. I had a maxed iron body fighter in beta and with the low lvl monsters i fought, it was easier to see how much hp was saved because the damage taken isn't in as large a range.

[Harrisonized]

It's not an easy one to figure out from ingame tests, a lot of things affect it
- monster atk
- player defense
- player str
- player class
- player level

Only 1 of these (defense) is easy to vary without affecting the rest, and there's no stat screen showing how much damage monsters do so the only way to find out is to keep bumping the monster until you've seen the highest and lowest damage it does, which takes longer and costs more than most other ingame formulas.


The trouble is also magnitude - only the monster atk has a noticeable effect (+130 monster atk = ~3k damage for Horntail) while the rest are tiny (+200 defense = ~90 damage difference, +1000 str = ~200 damage difference, +200 levels = ~200 difference again, and the classes affect how these numbers interact - a beginner's str barely changes the damage they take.)
Well...
I saw the other thread where Ruust found the Heal formula using some data from people testing. He found the formula without an actual number as the base damage.

When finding damage equations, we are given the monster's def and your own attack. Similarly, we are given the monster's attack and our own def. So in a sense, it shouldn't be harder to find the actual formula. It's just that nobody has tried. Why not try then?

I'm curious why the horntail pendant and the zakum helmet combined can give you nearly a 400 damage reduction. (Which goes against the hypothesis that 2.5 def = 1 damage taken off.)

[Ranylyn]

Well...
I saw the other thread where Ruust found the Heal formula using some data from people testing. He found the formula without an actual number as the base damage.

When finding damage equations, we are given the monster's def and your own attack. Similarly, we are given the monster's attack and our own def. So in a sense, it shouldn't be harder to find the actual formula. It's just that nobody has tried. Why not try then?

I'm curious why the horntail pendant and the zakum helmet combined can give you nearly a 400 damage reduction. (Which goes against the hypothesis that 2.5 def = 1 damage taken off.)


I've done some testing, and it seems that, if there is one set formula, then I obviously have a life that I'm not willing to waste cracking it. For example, at level 33, adding 10 def (Upgrading from a green Bamboo Hat to a Mythril Viking Helm) reduced over 30 damage on my page when I had a Dragon Robe, Venon Gloves, and Mythril Greaves. It wouldn't likely do as much of a difference if you slapped it on someone with work gloves, for instance.

I've come to realize one thing: The more defense you have total, the more each individual point is worth, essentially. Adding 10 defense to 0 def isn't a gamebreaker. Then again, neither is adding 10 def to 600 isn't going to be a gamebreaker either, but it will reduce more (on top of the initial 600 points) than adding the same amount to a lesser armored character.

All I can say for certain is one thing: There's a multiplier or an exponent somewhere in the formula; it is NOT a set damage reduction per point as people say. If you ask me, the whole "3 pts = 1 less dmg" theory was bullshit spouted by the dexless/ lukless community to try to convince others of their superiority.

[HiiEN]

I've done some testing, and it seems that, if there is one set formula, then I obviously have a life that I'm not willing to waste cracking it. For example, at level 33, adding 10 def (Upgrading from a green Bamboo Hat to a Mythril Viking Helm) reduced over 30 damage on my page when I had a Dragon Robe, Venon Gloves, and Mythril Greaves. It wouldn't likely do as much of a difference if you slapped it on someone with work gloves, for instance.

I've come to realize one thing: The more defense you have total, the more each individual point is worth, essentially. Adding 10 defense to 0 def isn't a gamebreaker. Then again, neither is adding 10 def to 600 isn't going to be a gamebreaker either, but it will reduce more (on top of the initial 600 points) than adding the same amount to a lesser armored character.

All I can say for certain is one thing: There's a multiplier or an exponent somewhere in the formula; it is NOT a set damage reduction per point as people say. If you ask me, the whole "3 pts = 1 less dmg" theory was bullshit spouted by the dexless/ lukless community to try to convince others of their superiority.
Kind of sounds like how the weapon attack forumlae work.

[Stereo]

All the tests I did pointed toward a 0.5*WDEF reduction on normal statted characters, with typical wdef.

If you move farther away from that (pure str magician, 3-400 extra wdef from "typical gear") you can maybe push it to 0.7*WDEF.

Primarily percentage skills will always be the best way to reduce damage. Achilles, Invincible, Powerguard, Hyperbody, the reason they're effective is that they reduce a percent of the total.


Might as well post numbers here...
Lv.38 Fighter against Street Slimes, 191~198 str (White Baseball Cap = +2 str, Fireman's Axe = +7 str)
3 wdef - Versalmas Hat, Black Strap Shoes, Maple Flag:
110-114 damage
64 wdef - White Baseball Cap, Silver Fitted Mail, Black Strap Shoes, Lionheart:
77-81 damage
97 wdef - Brown Bamboo Hat, Silver Fitted Mail, Black Strap Shoes, Lionheart:
59-64 damage
99 wdef - Mithril Full Helm, Sapphire Fitted Mail, Red Snowshoes, Lionheart:
58-62 damage
145 wdef - Brown Bamboo Hat, Sapphire Fitted Mail, Red Snowshoes, Fireman's Axe, Red Cross Shield:
33-37 damage

+61 def = -33 damage = 0.54 damage per def
+33 def = -17 damage = 0.52 damage per def
+2 def = -1 damage (or -2) = 0.5-1 damage per def... (this was mostly changing item class/levels..)
+46 def = -25 damage = 0.54 damage per def

It's pretty well linear for this case :/ I'll log on my Paladin later to do similar stuff, since it has a much wider range of defense.

[Russt]

Well...
I saw the other thread where Ruust found the Heal formula using some data from people testing. He found the formula without an actual number as the base damage.

When finding damage equations, we are given the monster's def and your own attack. Similarly, we are given the monster's attack and our own def. So in a sense, it shouldn't be harder to find the actual formula. It's just that nobody has tried. Why not try then?

I'm curious why the horntail pendant and the zakum helmet combined can give you nearly a 400 damage reduction. (Which goes against the hypothesis that 2.5 def = 1 damage taken off.)
That's not that difficult. Damage taken is harder because we really don't know how it looks, whereas with Heal damage I already was pretty sure it was based off (INT*something+LUK*something)*Magic, etc etc.

Try using Threaten or Disorder. That may help determine how monster attack plays a role.

[LazyBui]

If you ask me, the whole "3 pts = 1 less dmg" theory was bullshit spouted by the dexless/ lukless community to try to convince others of their superiority.No, that actually used to be the case. They changed the formula some time after 3rd job came out, I don't remember precisely when.

[Ranylyn]

Primarily percentage skills will always be the best way to reduce damage... the reason they're effective is that they reduce a percent of the total.

True, but combining the two, armor and buffs, has greater results. I read, back on SW, about a warrior who had 707 w.def, unbuffed (very possible with shield mastery). Now, combine this with powerguard and achilles. I bet the three combined could reduce Skelegon touch damage to 1k or even slightly under, assuming the 3.3k I hear sauna robe users take is accurate. Now, I dare anyone here to prove to me, mathematically, that taking 1/3 of the usual damage won't save a lot of money on potions and therefore allowing you to have much higher funding available to get godly weapons and armor. *waits patiently*


Might as well post numbers here...
Lv.38 Fighter against Street Slimes, 191~198 str (White Baseball Cap = +2 str, Fireman's Axe = +7 str)
3 wdef - Versalmas Hat, Black Strap Shoes, Maple Flag:
110-114 damage
64 wdef - White Baseball Cap, Silver Fitted Mail, Black Strap Shoes, Lionheart:
77-81 damage
97 wdef - Brown Bamboo Hat, Silver Fitted Mail, Black Strap Shoes, Lionheart:
59-64 damage
99 wdef - Mithril Full Helm, Sapphire Fitted Mail, Red Snowshoes, Lionheart:
58-62 damage
145 wdef - Brown Bamboo Hat, Sapphire Fitted Mail, Red Snowshoes, Fireman's Axe, Red Cross Shield:
33-37 damage

Thank you for posting these. I'm still unsure if Str really does anything in damage reduction, having not tested, but you still demonstrated something important: who can argue with taking less damage? The typical dexless assassin or Lukless mage, for example, lands around the 70 w.def range, assuming they have a bamboo hat, sauna and showshoes. Also, 145 w/def is actually low for a 35-40 1h warrior (lol bamboo hat, a great helm can add up to the same amount of str or dex if found as a drop, I think, at around 20 def more) and there's no mention of gloves either.

I'll be happy to contribute statistics around the mid-levels range (4x-6x) once I return to GMS from my testing in a private server. I'd contribute numbers from there, but since it isn't hosted by Nexon the numbers may be unreliable, or at least highly scrutinized (I'm nearly certain it's all the same formulas but I have no way of proving it)


No, that actually used to be the case. They changed the formula some time after 3rd job came out, I don't remember precisely when.

I knew about that, but the keywords here are "used to be." 3rd job came out... what, 2 years ago? I joined one year ago and 3rd had apparently already been out for a long time. You'd think that YEARS would be enough for people to realize, "Oh, that's wrong, maybe I should stop telling this guy who likes his armor that he's full of shit, that I should stop KSing him for not wearing a sauna, etc." It gets really annoying....

[Stereo]

Thank you for posting these. I'm still unsure if Str really does anything in damage reduction, having not tested, but you still demonstrated something important: who can argue with taking less damage? The typical dexless assassin or Lukless mage, for example, lands around the 70 w.def range, assuming they have a bamboo hat, sauna and showshoes. Also, 145 w/def is actually low for a 35-40 1h warrior (lol bamboo hat, a great helm can add up to the same amount of str or dex if found as a drop, I think, at around 20 def more) and there's no mention of gloves either.

I was just going with what was on the character at the time, in that level range my gear is actually pretty good.
Bamboo hat - 35 def - equal to clean Great Helm, beats brown bandana easily
Snowshoes - 20 def - 1 less than Trigger, much easier to buy scrolled
Fitted Mail - 60 def - beats every other class item I can wear at lv.38
(Shield + 1h weapon - 32 def - does not provide the damage to win CPQ)
(White Fingerless Gloves - 9 def - 6 less than the level 35 ones - currently stored elsewhere for some reason)

It could be improved but only by scrolling for defense or rescrolling things to replace my lower level stuff, which would cost a lot for a couple extra defense.

Fighter 2:
Level 53, 273+ STR, vs. various
-8 defense: (273str, with the assistance of lv.16 Rage..)
Slime - 35
0 defense (ditto without Rage)
Slime - 35 again
Green Mushroom - 85-88
Horny Mushroom - 101-104
7 defense: (298str)
Slime - 31-32
Green Mushroom - 82-85 : 0.43 ± .14
Horny Mushroom - 98-101 : 0.43 ± .14
Croco - 343-355 (not fully tested, this costs a lot)
60 defense:
Slime - 5-6 : 0.49 ± 0.02
103 defense: (301str)
Slime - 1
Green Mushroom - 33-36 : 0.51 ± .01
Horny Mushroom - 46-50 : 0.54 ± .01
Croco - 263-277 : 0.83 ± .01
173 defense: (313str)
Horny Mushroom - 7-11 : 0.56 ± .015
Croco - 205-218 : 0.84 ± .015
281 defense: (317str)
Croco - 115-129 : 0.83 ± .018
(Monster - min-max : damage per def to previous ± approximate accuracy)

I guess monster level is important too... :/ Still appears linear for a given monster though.

[Ranylyn]

Bamboo hat - 35 def - equal to clean Great Helm, beats brown bandana easily.

Just... 35 def bamboo hat? Just... what the? Seriously? You must have landed some 30% Defense scrolls on that sucker or something, I've only ever seen them with like 15-17 defense.

I do agree though, defense scrolls don't add enough defense for their cost, as well as in comparison to stats. They should increase the amount def scrolls add just to balance it out.

Also, no level 3x, no matter how funded, can win at CPQ alone, so the damage dealt isn't that big a deal; so long as you're not losing CP by dying, right?

Edit:
I guess monster level is important too... :/

For sure. There's a lot of variables, which is why I haven't sat down and worked at cracking it (more than ocne) yet.

[Stereo]

The bamboo hat is 4x10% (owned it since before Cursed scrolls released) and I do win CPQs against other characters up to around level 42 :/ Maple Weapons really throw it off past there (I'm using a 64 Lionheart, 90+ atk Maple Axes are not unheard of), but a decently funded Fighter is very strong even at low levels.

I'm gonna try to arrange to hit up some of the weaker Zipangu monsters on as many characters as can reach a world tour. If you could do the same that seems like a reasonable way to hash out character differences. No defense, mid defense, and full defense numbers preferably for each. I think I'll go to the Extra A-B's since they do a bit less than Crocos, still enough to handle 200+ def.

[Ranylyn]

Sure thing, I have plans for this evening but I have characters ranging from 10-57 that I can run into Fire Raccoons and Cloud Foxes with tommorow. My page may unbalance things though, he has 300+ defense, but if I can contribute any data to help, I will.

[Stereo]

Lv.92 DK
0 def, 444 str
Cloud Fox : 124-128 damage
Leader A : 371-386 damage
Leader B : 291-303 damage
Extra A : 216-225 damage
Extra B : 241-251 damage
Extra C : 245-255 damage

100 def, 451 str
Cloud Fox : 68-72 damage

200 def, 465 str
Cloud Fox : 8-12 damage
Leader A : 243-256 damage
Leader B : 158-170 damage
Extra A : 95-104 damage
Extra B : 121-128 damage
Extra C : 123-132 damage

300 def, 473 str
Leader A : 174-190 damage
Leader B : 90-102 damage
Extra A : 33-42 damage
Extra B : 57-68 damage
Extra C : 58-69 damage

360 def, 475 str
Leader A : 131-146 damage
Leader B : 48-59 damage
Extra A : 1-3 damage
Extra B : 18-29 damage
Extra C : 19-29 damage

I'll get more later, 363 is about the max def on my DK so I went 360 for round numbers (146 lv. 50 helm + 94 lv. 90 top + 52 lv. 60 bottom + 51 lv. 90 shoe + 6 lv.45 earring + 2 lv.70 Polearm + 9 lv.25 glove).

[Russt]

Some things to consider:
Pain relievers/Iron Will increases defense.
Threaten/Disorder reduces monster attack.
Could help with investigations.

I'll try some tests, I guess.


Updating as I go:

Lv.30 cleric
0 def, 5 str
Cloud Fox: 103-108
Extra B: 215-225

50 def, 5 str
Cloud Fox: 70-75
Extra B: 176-187

Lv.35 page
0 def, 152 str
Cloud Fox: 130-134
Extra B: 275-286

50 def, 152 str
Cloud Fox: 97-102
Extra B: 232-242

100 def, 152 str
Cloud Fox: 65-70
Extra B: 187-198

149 def, 152 str
Cloud Fox: 33-38
Extra B: 144-155


One thing that sticks out at this point is that with 100 defense, my page takes less damage from Cloud Foxes than your DK.

[Stereo]

Yeah, for some reason being very much higher leveled than a monster and low defense is a disadvantage. I'm pretty sure level 1x characters aren't taking 35 per hit from Slimes but my Fighter was. It's so much that the "at most 10% of hp" factor of Powerguard kicks in and it was only taking off 5 damage out of 35, instead of 14.

[Russt]

Hm
Well what I meant is that at 0 defense, I was taking more damage, and at 100 defense, you were.

[Stereo]

Ok, my Paladin can go to higher wdef but they mostly do 1 damage :/ but here it is.
lv.121 Paladin

0 wdef, 591 str
Cloud Fox - 121-125

100 wdef, 604 str
Cloud Fox - 62-66
Leader A - 292-307
Leader B - 207-219
Extra A - 149-157
Extra B - 172-183
Extra C - 173-184

200 wdef, 606 str
Cloud Fox - 1-5
Leader A - 226-240
Leader B - 142-153
Extra A - 87-94
Extra B - 110-120
Extra C - 111-121

300 wdef, 624 str
Leader A - 158-175
Leader B - 76-87
Extra A - 21-30
Extra B - 45-56
Extra C - 45-56

401 wdef, 635 str
Leader A - 85-101
Leader B - 3-13

501 wdef, 631 str
Leader A - 20-33

600 wdef
All 1 damage

[Cyanne]

Your paladin has threaten, right? You could use that to modify the monster's attack while keeping everything else controlled to see how the exponential curve for monster weapon attack is like.

[Russt]

My page has level 3 threaten too, for whatever that counts for.
(It seemed to take off 1-2 damage from Cloud Foxes. I didn't bother with extensive testing, since 3 attack isn't really enough.)

[Ranylyn]

So I was right a long time ago then with the original thread on SW, back when I dabbled with a few ideas at the formula. There is some form of "parity" system, where if your level increases but your defense doesn't, you'll take more damage than a lower levelled character. That's probably how my 4x hunter was taking 170 at Zombies while my friend's 6x sin was taking 210+. Also, I saw with my own eyes, when my girlfriend's cleric hit 33 forever and a day ago, she suddenly started taking 30 more damage from the block golems I was training on with my page at the time, my guess being that 33 is when a new equipment set becomes available.

Maybe we've been going about this the wrong way. Let's get some differing levelled gear (Say, a 60, 70, and 90 set) but scroll the lower ones to make them all approximately the same defense, and then check if the level of your gear has a direct impact. If not, there's still the fact that Levelling plus no defense increase = more damage taken.

"This is stupid" May come to mind for some, "Why should levelling up make me take MORE damage?" Quite simply, I think it was to promote and encourage upgrading. Take a look at the ___less builds some people use and you'll see what I mean. Sauna Robes forever? I'll take a nice piece of armor please.

Edit: One last thing. To really cover all possibilities, let's get more fighters in on this, and look at the extra damage taken while rage is in effect

[Stereo]

So I was right a long time ago then with the original thread on SW, back when I dabbled with a few ideas at the formula. There is some form of "parity" system, where if your level increases but your defense doesn't, you'll take more damage than a lower levelled character. That's probably how my 4x hunter was taking 170 at Zombies while my friend's 6x sin was taking 210+. Also, I saw with my own eyes, when my girlfriend's cleric hit 33 forever and a day ago, she suddenly started taking 30 more damage from the block golems I was training on with my page at the time, my guess being that 33 is when a new equipment set becomes available.
Yeah, the class penalty changes each time you can equip new gear.


Maybe we've been going about this the wrong way. Let's get some differing levelled gear (Say, a 60, 70, and 90 set) but scroll the lower ones to make them all approximately the same defense, and then check if the level of your gear has a direct impact. If not, there's still the fact that Levelling plus no defense increase = more damage taken.
I notice no difference due to equip level, the level 60 & 90 female skirts have almost the same defense (52 and 55?) so I have a pair with identical defense that I can swap and nothing changes.


Edit: One last thing. To really cover all possibilities, let's get more fighters in on this, and look at the extra damage taken while rage is in effect

I can't speak for all points, but when I was at 0 base defense and used rage, damage did not change.




Threaten works off the base formula, so you can calculate it like that:
[(w.atk*w.atk) - (w.atk-threaten)*(w.atk-threaten)]/125 = difference, where threaten = number of atk reduced (20 at max).
Simplified (assuming max threaten), this is [8*w.atk-80]/25. For example, with 465 atk (Grims), you get [8*465-80]/25 = 145 reduction. Taking into account Powerguard, this is 87 reduction to the damage you take.



The formula is something like this:
Max (watk^2)/125 - (wdef-k)*something
Min (watk^2)/125*0.945 - (wdef-k)*something
"Something" used to be a consistent 0.43 and k was 0. Now it appears there may be a value of k which depends on your level+class, and "something" is along the lines of (1+str/10000)*([player level - monster level]/100 + 1)*0.5, or something like that.

[Russt]

Not quite. STR seems to make a difference even when defense is 0.

Another thing I'm curious about is magic attacks and how they're calculated. Does each monster skill have a base attack value, and is it in the data? I just checked the database, it doesn't seem to be in Mob.wz.

I'm sure it isn't based directly off monster matk, because of numerous inconsistencies like squid ink shot, different attacks from the same monster (lantern ghosts and kappas come to mind), extra D's overdamaging punch, so on and so forth.