Dexless DW vs. dexless NW [Archive]

Greg22

2009-08-21, 09:00 PM

Dawn Warriors are superior in pretty much every way. They have a great arsenal of attacks, and focus on what normal Heroes lacked the most; mobility and mob attacks. By level 120, a Dawn Warrior has roughly 8.2k HP, allowing them to enjoy bosses such as Pap, Manon, Griffey, Leviathan, and Pianus (All of which a Night Walker CANNOT survive, period). Night Walkers may dish out the most damage, but what good is it if they can't even make good use of it at area bosses, or even lower tier bosses such as Pap? Just like their Night Lord counterpart, they only have ONE ATTACK, TRIPLETHROW TRIPLETHROW TRIPLETHROW. After reaching 120, you're not going to be training on anything, so what good is that flashy little posion bat thing?

Nothing good at all.

Takebacker

2009-08-21, 09:36 PM

DW= MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS MISS

NW=Needs moar pylons....I meant HP.

That sums it up for me.

I never miss, i'm dexless, and my base acc is exactly what you're supposed to have to hit any trainable mob at or above it's level (138).

My neos pants are clean too.

IllegallySane

2009-08-21, 09:52 PM

Be stuck with a ~3.3k HP girly ninja star thrower vs a ~8.2k HP tank who can mob as well as he can kill one-on-one?

Hahaha........... yup.

Ryukiroku

2009-08-21, 10:06 PM

This thread is beginning to make me sad, :f4:
but being pretty much a seasoned NL/NW type person thing does that to me and I would have to agree with everyone else that DWs are so much better than NWs. They've got killer damage, mobility, and the added bonus of having over 2.5~3x more hp than whatever a NW could hope to have(talking hp of course) plus the flashy skills also.(As much as I love vampire):goggle:

Viper

2009-08-22, 03:45 AM

I just went with NW, because I can't play any other class. :p
And it's not like us KoC's are meant for bossing anyways, we're mostly used for the +12 atk boost.

Shady

2009-08-22, 04:24 AM

Dyxanije

2009-08-22, 09:03 AM

You're forgetting the most important factor: opinion. Alwasy the pomegranate about bosses/ damage/ HP and such. Can't people have fun without killing bosses? You prefer DW. Ok, fine with me. You hate/ don't like NW, then don't bash them.

-> I like to play my NW.

You're forgetting the most important factor: opinion. Anyway, the shit about NOT bossing/damage/Hp and such. Can't people care about that stuff without bitches getting on their case? ;-; You prefer NW? Ok, fine with me. You hate/dislike DW? The don't lecture people.

-> I like to play my DW.

Kalovale

2009-08-22, 09:05 AM

Am I the only one that plays both?

Takebacker

2009-08-22, 09:17 AM

You're forgetting the most important factor: opinion. Alwasy the pomegranate about bosses/ damage/ HP and such. Can't people have fun without killing bosses? You prefer DW. Ok, fine with me. You hate/ don't like NW, then don't bash them.

-> I like to play my NW.

Fact: NWs have low HP.
Fact: NWs can't boss for s'hit because of their low HP.
Fact: DWs are the exact opposite of the above facts.

Can't people have fun without killing bosses?

Doing what? You're not training. You can't PQ. Questing for the majority is not fun. What the f'uck else are you going to do for fun as a 120 cygnus?

Holypie

2009-08-22, 09:35 AM

Sell leech as a BW? Use a BW to get another Cygnus up? BW is fun.

Takebacker

2009-08-22, 09:55 AM

Sell leech as a BW? Use a BW to get another Cygnus up? BW is fun.

Anyone who would buy leech when an AM could do it way easier for probably the same price is retarded.

Kawasari Mimoto

2009-08-22, 09:56 AM

My Night Lord is my main. From personal experiences... =D ....

Dawn Warrior > Night Walkers in every way possible. NWs would have a 'bit' of an advantage had DWs not have Soul Runner, but they do. Now that Warriors have an ability that gives them speed, NWs are pretty much obsolete. Only thing they can KS are Sins and any of the weaker classes that are Advens, I'd only make a NW for CPQ (maybe).

A DW is significantly better because of:
-Higher HP (no need to friggin spend over 200+ dollars to HP wash on a NW to get a measly amount of HP that isn't even beneficial if you can't even Zakum since you'd be doing crap damage.. rofl. NWs loses in this department.)
-Mobbing + Single target attacks
-Attacks are more fancy
-Has more than a 'single' main attack at the endgame. Oh please, don't even tell me NWs uses Avenger. Most Night Lords I know rarely use Avenger at Skelegons unless it's for sure there's 5+ Skeles in front, that and Avenger's DPS isn't actually magnificent.

Holypie

2009-08-22, 09:59 AM

Anyone who would buy leech when an AM could do it way easier for probably the same price is retarded.

What if you don't have an AM? I mainly meant the second one.

Takebacker

2009-08-22, 10:02 AM

What if you don't have an AM? I mainly meant the second one.

Most people don't have 2+ computers...

I do, but i rarely use both of them.

Sure, why not. This isn't really the point of the thread though. When i said 120 cygnus i obviously meant DW/NW.

Greg22

2009-08-22, 10:41 AM

You're forgetting the most important factor: opinion. Alwasy the pomegranate about bosses/ damage/ HP and such. Can't people have fun without killing bosses? You prefer DW. Ok, fine with me. You hate/ don't like NW, then don't bash them.

-> I like to play my NW.

It's not bashing; OP asked us why we prefer one Cygnus over another, and a Night Walker's garbage HP and limited attacks are the first thing to come to mind. Night Walkers cannot kill bosses, and that sucks. If anyone disagrees, then they're just trying too hard to enjoy their class.

Worthyness

2009-08-22, 10:43 AM

byakugan

2009-08-22, 11:10 AM

i made both :D

I just want the DW for FJ + brandish. That was sexy when i played on a PS xD

NW to get away from my TB cause the TB is basically a marauder and it got really old really fast. no new flashy skill until 3rd job while every other class gets one =(

Tell that to a DW. Although we get soul runner and Soul Blade, we dont get any 3rd job sill in our Second job as all the other Cugnus do. (I'm not complaining). In the other hand, Lightning charge is one of the best looking skills IMO.

Takebacker

2009-08-22, 11:11 AM

Tell that to a DW. Although we get soul runner and Soul Blade, we dont get any 3rd job sill in our Second job as all the other Cugnus do. (I'm not complaining). In the other hand, Lightning charge is one of the best looking skills IMO.

Someone wanna translate this...?

byakugan

2009-08-22, 11:25 AM

Someone wanna translate this...?

For what I got, he said he doesn't like TB's because they dont have any flashy skills until 3rd Job. But they get Energy Charge and Energy Blast, while a DW gets no Crusader's 3rd job skills. It's not really related to the main topic though. :P

Management

2009-08-22, 11:29 AM

Both are only good for one purpose:

Buffing your fucking main.

Shady

2009-08-22, 11:45 AM

You're forgetting the most important factor: opinion. Anyway, the shit about NOT bossing/damage/Hp and such. Can't people care about that stuff without bitches getting on their case? ;-; You prefer NW? Ok, fine with me. You hate/dislike DW? The don't lecture people.

-> I like to play my DW.You missed my point. Don't try to make things worse.

Fact: NWs have low HP.
Fact: NWs can't boss for s'hit because of their low HP.
Fact: DWs are the exact opposite of the above facts.

Doing what? You're not training. You can't PQ. Questing for the majority is not fun. What the f'uck else are you going to do for fun as a 120 cygnus?I would use my Cygnus at lv120 as 'att buff', not for bossing anyway. 0_O

It's not bashing; OP asked us why we prefer one Cygnus over another, and a Night Walker's garbage HP and limited attacks are the first thing to come to mind. Night Walkers cannot kill bosses, and that sucks. If anyone disagrees, then they're just trying too hard to enjoy their class.PQs :D

Facts are facts. HB can do a lot. Soloing bosses is not my favorite fun-party in MS. I prefer to party kill such bosses.
I'm currently doing LPQ. Meaning I'm killing Alishar, a boss. I'm killing one. Omg - hype. Soon I'll do OPQ, Papa Pixie anyone. If I want to kill only high level bosses, then I prefer to take them down with a party. I know you meant high level bosses, but the low level content is IMO the places where no one cares about my sucky damage and go hoaring on me, because I'm not rich or because I don't have a high level main.

MrSoyMilk

2009-08-22, 02:58 PM

thanks for your opinion guys.

so as for raw damage, is it true that dexless dawn warrior will do more DPS than a dexless night walker on a single monster, both at lv 120?

IllegallySane

2009-08-22, 03:25 PM

thanks for your opinion guys.

so as for raw damage, is it true that dexless dawn warrior will do more DPS than a dexless night walker on a single monster, both at lv 120?

At bosses Dawn Warriors won't deal more raw damage than a Nightwalker once Sharp Eyes is given, but how many people will Sharp Eyes to a level 120 character when level 150+ counterparts are available? In other words, by themselves Dawn Warriors are more powerful than a Nightwalker. Even with Sharp Eyes, Dawn Warriors can keep up, like 80-90% of a Nightwalker's damage?

Let's not forget how grossly powerful a Dawn Warrior's mobbing abilities are. Avenger, like Greg said, is crap mob damage. Brandish is SEX whether hitting 1 monster or three, and Soul Driver makes Avenger deflate in e-peen size.

Corn

2009-08-22, 03:30 PM

I would use my Cygnus at lv120 as 'att buff', not for bossing anyway. 0_O

PQs =D

Using your Cygnus at 120 for an attack buff is straying from your original point of having...fun.:f6:

And PQs...there's not a lot of PQs one can do as a 120 Cygnus. Henesys Party Quest...guild quests....yeah.

Worthyness

2009-08-22, 03:35 PM

Dusk

2009-08-22, 04:15 PM

Either way i'm fully enjoying all my cygnus characters even though i have yet to get one past 50.

I might use them to boss too depending which ones. How bad is the damage reduction by level for the DW and NW at Zak? lol

20%

You guys care too much about HP. What do you need HP for at 120? You can take a hit from Zak quite easily at 120, and Pap/Pianus fine with HB.

Dusk

2009-08-22, 04:17 PM

Edit: Oh shit double post

Shady

2009-08-22, 05:11 PM

Using your Cygnus at 120 for an attack buff is straying from your original point of having...fun.:f6:

And PQs...there's not a lot of PQs one can do as a 120 Cygnus. Henesys Party Quest...guild quests....yeah.No. I enjoy the way to lv120 :D

Taliant

2009-08-22, 07:33 PM

I have both, and I must say I prefer my Dawn Warrior. Neither are dexless, mind (though both are low dex, NW will go back to normal when i can't abuse my maple weapons anymore w/o spending mad money) but I enjoy what both bring to the table.

Dawn is just an excellant overall character with everything that I hated about playing a warrior fixed. Night Walker is just my Watermelon mule and I plan to use as broken glasses mule as well. Flash Jump early is nice, but that's about it. I suppose since they are on seperate accounts I could combine their party buffs for each other to make traveling and leveling easier/cheaper some, but that's about it...

TLX

2009-08-22, 09:42 PM

No. I enjoy the way to lv120 :D

And what about people who want a character that isn't useless once you get to 120? At least a DW can solo bosses very easily. In fact, I can solo pap faster than some 150+ heroes. What can a night walker do? Get 1 hit killed by every decent boss in existence?

Shady

2009-08-24, 06:39 AM

And what about people who want a character that isn't useless once you get to 120? At least a DW can solo bosses very easily. In fact, I can solo pap faster than some 150+ heroes. What can a night walker do? Get 1 hit killed by every decent boss in existence?You shouldn't be complaining, since you claim to become lv150 really easy @LolBasil.

Like I said before: there is also partying. O wait, people are too good for that? Many people claim to still play because of their friends, but partying with them is bad? Plus I prefer to get x% on a different char, then 0% on a lv120 char.

Plus avoiding bombs at Pap is pretty awesome. It makes the fight harder, thus more exciting/ more fun.

Ą-Striker-Ą

2009-08-24, 08:07 AM

NW = Without HB + lag = Dead at Papulatus.

Shady

2009-08-24, 02:17 PM

NW = Without HB + lag = Dead at Papulatus.DW = 1/1 + lag + another attack= Dead at Papulatus.

IllegallySane

2009-08-24, 02:32 PM

DW = 1/1 + lag + another attack= Dead at Papulatus.

At least the Dawn Warrior can take a hit from Pap's 2nd body. Can't say the same for Nightwalkers.

NW = Without HB + lag = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Body touch = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Bomb = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Stun + touch = Dead at Papulatus.

Lag can kill anyone. Touching pap's body or a bomb doesn't kill Dawn Warriors.

Dyxanije

2009-08-24, 03:23 PM

It makes the fight harder, thus more exciting/ more fun.

You could also say this about soloing.

Shady

2009-08-24, 05:20 PM

At least the Dawn Warrior can take a hit from Pap's 2nd body. Can't say the same for Nightwalkers.

NW = Without HB + lag = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Body touch = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Bomb = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Stun + touch = Dead at Papulatus.

Lag can kill anyone. Touching pap's body or a bomb doesn't kill Dawn Warriors.There is always a way to die. Don't forget Dark Sight for Pap's second body. And don't forget avoid :(

You could also say this about soloing.Very true.

Difference is (according to all of you)
Pap - DW - easy mode
Pap - NW - xtreme mode <--- too hard or what?

Dyxanije

2009-08-24, 05:26 PM

Difference is (according to all of you)
Pap - DW - easy mode
Pap - NW - xtreme mode <--- too hard or what?

Most of us are saying that Night Walkers have survivability issues due to their low HP.

Shady

2009-08-25, 02:12 PM

Most of us are saying that Night Walkers have survivability issues due to their low HP.Let me finish that sentence.

Most of us are saying that Night Walkers have survivability issues due to their low HP, so bossing with them is not as easy. Meaning they suck.

Hotshot

2009-08-26, 05:43 PM

Let me finish that sentence.

Most of us are saying that Night Walkers have survivability issues due to their low HP, so bossing with them is not as easy. Meaning they suck.

What everyone generally means is "most bosses kill nightwalkers in one shot, meaning no amount of survivability or 'skill' will save them. Other bosses (like pap) can cause a lot of cheap/annoying deaths, so maybe it looks like they require more skill, until you lag a little or get stunned at the wrong time (mostly unavoidable) and die. They don't suck, they're just extremely disadvantaged.

TřbiasBlack

2009-08-27, 04:13 PM

You were doing it wrong. I prefer DW, I could care less about STATless. I simply like warriors. Playing a ranged character (other than my Outlaw, who I love - flying backwards seems much more useful to me than forwards) just feels wrong to me.

heh, funny; to me and my mind (dont you mean minds?), the DK is a ranged class (roar, fury/crusher, yes) AND a close-range as well; mostly the only reason ive stuck to it. =/

id prefer a NW to a DW, as, like i stated above; i detest close range fighting (except with my TB, simply due to invincibility), and NW's are 'dark' aligned. win. dexless matters not to this multipolar.

EDIT::
ya know guys, fun is relative. sure at 120 theres not a whole lot you can do, but cygnus knights main function is to act as a 12attk/24(?)m.attk boost for the parent character. for me, the ranged aspect of a NW and the god-mode (omgwtfhax) of the TB are fun. besides, they arent anywhere NEAR 120 yet, and only 1 of my characters is, and hes only 96 ATM. whats important is not only a jobs potential, but the effort required to attain that greatness. unless, you just leeched to 120, and if any lazy bums did... fuck out my MS.

Shady

2009-08-28, 04:31 AM

What everyone generally means is "most bosses kill nightwalkers in one shot, meaning no amount of survivability or 'skill' will save them. Other bosses (like pap) can cause a lot of cheap/annoying deaths, so maybe it looks like they require more skill, until you lag a little or get stunned at the wrong time (mostly unavoidable) and die. They don't suck, they're just extremely disadvantaged.It's called partying like I said before.

We've got: Pap, Zakum, Horntail, Pianus, Manon and Griffey.
Pap is survivable.
Zakum is not the boss I want to solo at 120.
Horntail is .... y'know
Pianus is 1HKO
Manon and griffey are survivable. However, they're maybe not worth it to hunt them at all.

So Pianus is IMO the only problem, but it's quite easy to find a party for it since it's hunted a lot. It has a crappy respawn time, so you might end up not even finding one.

Devil

2009-08-28, 08:28 AM

Lozmaster

2009-08-28, 09:08 AM

There you go, I'm almost ready for Horntail, 357 Base HP to go! xD

Have fun with a 40% damage reduction even if you could get the hp.

Dusk

2009-08-28, 11:59 AM

At least the Dawn Warrior can take a hit from Pap's 2nd body. Can't say the same for Nightwalkers.

NW = Without HB + lag = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Body touch = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Bomb = Dead at Papulatus.
NW = Without HB + Stun + touch = Dead at Papulatus.

Lag can kill anyone. Touching pap's body or a bomb doesn't kill Dawn Warriors.

Dude, my Corsair doesn't have enough HP to tank Pap's 2nd body. Doesn't stop me from raping him the moment he spawns.

Shady

2009-08-28, 12:12 PM

There you go, I'm almost ready for Horntail, 357 Base HP to go! xD

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/5848/maple3534.jpg

Darn pap and his 1/1 attacks + no summons... :hothead:

P.S. Dont you love all those buffs covering Papu's HP? :')
Hot. :glitter:

Dude, my Corsair doesn't have enough HP to tank Pap's 2nd body. Doesn't stop me from raping him the moment he spawns.Word.

IllegallySane

2009-08-28, 12:28 PM

Dude, my Corsair doesn't have enough HP to tank Pap's 2nd body. Doesn't stop me from raping him the moment he spawns.

I still don't like the idea slight lag will kill you.

"Lag is an interesting phenomenon. It's said that the ancient Titans of Uldaman wrote in their tablets: 'Many powerful spells we have seen, some we have known ourselves, some epic cooking recipes have we stored in our giant pouches, but none as powerful, none as utterly devastating as lagz0r.'"

Dusk

2009-08-28, 12:40 PM

I still don't like the idea slight lag will kill you.

"Lag is an interesting phenomenon. It's said that the ancient Titans of Uldaman wrote in their tablets: 'Many powerful spells we have seen, some we have known ourselves, some epic cooking recipes have we stored in our giant pouches, but none as powerful, none as utterly devastating as lagz0r.'"

I don't like the idea that you rate classes based on how well they perform when they're lagging. Is that why you HP wash your Bucc? I've seen warriors die from lag, so it's not like you can escape lag by being able to take a hit. HP should only be an issue when it's not possible to avoid the attack.

IllegallySane

2009-08-28, 12:46 PM

I don't like the idea that you rate classes based on how well they perform when they're lagging. Is that why you HP wash your Bucc? I've seen warriors die from lag, so it's not like you can escape lag by being able to take a hit. HP should only be an issue when it's not possible to avoid the attack.

I never rated based on lag. I'm saying on the OFF-CHANCE there is a lag spike, who's going to survive the Pap attack.

So every warrior who HP washes fear lag? I guess every single Dark Knight out there is a total wussy. oh wait, I guess every warrior is a wuss because their HP pool is so high. :f7:

No, I HP wash because I want to go all out on my character. I planned since the beginning that my Pirate will be my final character that I will seriously play (to 200). Because of that, I stuck with him being DEXless and I aim to have around 16-18k HP by level 200. If that is wrong to do because it implies I fear lagz0rs, then that is illogical. I've had more than a dozen lag related deaths. I GUESS I SHOULD HP WASH MORE TO ESCAPE THIS PROBLEM. :f7:

Stereo

2009-08-28, 12:48 PM

TBH I started playing my Hermit because I was lagging and still wanted to play.

On average, it takes longer for the NL to get hit to death than the Paladin... and since I'm not standing next to the enemy, it's also easier to avoid that situation.

Dusk

2009-08-28, 03:18 PM

I never rated based on lag. I'm saying on the OFF-CHANCE there is a lag spike, who's going to survive the Pap attack.

So every warrior who HP washes fear lag? I guess every single Dark Knight out there is a total wussy. oh wait, I guess every warrior is a wuss because their HP pool is so high. :f7:

No, I HP wash because I want to go all out on my character. I planned since the beginning that my Pirate will be my final character that I will seriously play (to 200). Because of that, I stuck with him being DEXless and I aim to have around 16-18k HP by level 200. If that is wrong to do because it implies I fear lagz0rs, then that is illogical. I've had more than a dozen lag related deaths. I GUESS I SHOULD HP WASH MORE TO ESCAPE THIS PROBLEM. :f7:

Exactly - even with 30k HP you can still be killed by lag. So "lol NW die if they lag" is a stupid thing to say.

IllegallySane

2009-08-28, 10:21 PM

Exactly - even with 30k HP you can still be killed by lag. So "lol NW die if they lag" is a stupid thing to say.

Being killed in one hit at 100% HP because of lag is stupid, because for those with bad internet it really defeats the purpose of playing ranged characters. Melee characters get the luxury of getting a second or two more time to survive.

Wait, why are we going off-topic here? We are talking about NW vs DW, not Adventurer classes. Obviously any Adventurer, at a high enough level, can take two hits from Pap. Cygnus Knights are forced to be stuck at 120 for bossing, which does not leave a lot of room to HP wash if they want to, and even if they want to HP wash it seems like a complete waste when the main purpose of the Cygnus Knight is powering up the parent class. An Adventurer is better at bossing in the long run; everyone knows that.

Level 120 Nightwalkers will die in one hit from Pap at the cost of dealing loads of damage. 120 Dawn Warriors can handle 2-3 hits from Pap, YET they deal monstrous damage as well thanks to Brandish in combination with both Combos, a Soul Charge, and a Red Katana speed weapon. When the lag spike hits, the Nightwalker is more likely to die. HOWEVER, a Dawn Warrior spits on the Nightwalkers squishiness as they just keep on dealing 20-30k Brandishs. That's the gist of my argument. Nothing more, nothing less.

*With an Apple Dawn Warriors are capable of 30-50k Brandishes. :goggle:

Nightwalkers are mechanically inferior to Dawn Warriors. Want better examples?

If Nightwalkers are the Chun-Li/Cammy, Dawn Warriors are the Akuma.

If Night Walkers are Crono from Chrono Trigger, Dawn Warriors are end-game Robo.

If Night Walkers are the Rogues from WoW, Dawn Warriors are the Death Knights.

If Night Walkers are the Sword Masters from Fire Emblem, Dawn Warriors are Ike.

If Night Walkers are the Blazikens, Dawn Warriors are the Garchomps.

IF NIGHT WALKERS ARE THE FRAGILER SPEEDSTERS (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.FragileSpeedster), DAWN WARRIORS ARE THE LIGHTNING BRUISERS (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LightningBruiser)

Mechanically, Dawn Warriors are superior to Nightwalkers because they only lose out a little damage to make up for overall awesomeness. Nightwalkers are good. Dawn Warriors are just better.

-Mobility? Nightwalkers have Flash Jump. Dawn Warriors have a Soul version.
-Ranged attacks? Nightwalkers have Triple Throw/Avenger. Dawn Warriors have Brandish/Soul Driver (and Soul Driver hits 8 enemies instead of 6)
-Survivability? Average Nightwalkers aren't going to handle anything higher than a 3.5k-4k hit. Dawn Warriors can take 8k+ hits.
-Power Boosts? Nightwalkers have Shadow Partner and require Sharp Eyes to be uber. Dawn Warriors have Combo, Advanced Combo, and Soul Charge; Sharp Eyes is not needed for them to rock.
-Melee attacks? Nightwalkers. What melee attacks? Vampire?? Poison Sling? Dawn Warriors have Brandish.
-Mob power? Nightwalkers have a weak Avenger. Dawn Warriors rip things apart with Brandish, and massive mobs with Soul Driver.

Dusk

2009-08-28, 11:54 PM

I make no argument that NWs are better than DWs, but I still don't believe dying in one hit because you lag a lot is a disadvantage at all.

Cyanne

2009-08-29, 12:35 AM

Just put AP into hp as you approach 120, you only have a couple levels left to train anyways and aren't going to do much at bosses while dead. I did this with my striker, and it was great. Being able to take zakum body bumps without HB is awesome. You can use your main character for actual bossing, unless you play your cygnus as your main.

IllegallySane

2009-08-29, 02:13 AM

I make no argument that NWs are better than DWs, but I still don't believe dying in one hit because you lag a lot is a disadvantage at all.

It is to me. It also is a disadvantage for bossing when the boss deals unavoidable damage that requires HP washing to live through. Horntail is an average example because number crunching proved without HP washing the average character would just be able to handle a Horntail hit at nearly level 200. Pink Bean is a ridiculous example (statue damage of course) because it needs unfunny levels of HP washing the the brink about 7k base HP is needed to handle the statue damage safely.

Dusk

2009-08-29, 02:16 AM

It is to me. It also is a disadvantage for bossing when the boss deals unavoidable damage that requires HP washing to live through. Horntail is an average example because number crunching proved without HP washing the average character would just be able to handle a Horntail hit at nearly level 200. Pink Bean is a ridiculous example (statue damage of course) because it needs unfunny levels of HP washing the the brink about 7k base HP is needed to handle the statue damage safely.

How is that related? You can't get through HT without enough HP to tank a hit. You're saying that NWs have trouble with Pap because they can't take a hit.

Shady

2009-08-29, 04:42 PM

Wait, why are we going off-topic here? We are talking about NW vs DW, not Adventurer classes. Obviously any Adventurer, at a high enough level, can take two hits from Pap. Cygnus Knights are forced to be stuck at 120 for bossing, which does not leave a lot of room to HP wash if they want to, and even if they want to HP wash it seems like a complete waste when the main purpose of the Cygnus Knight is powering up the parent class. An Adventurer is better at bossing in the long run; everyone knows that.

Level 120 Nightwalkers will die in one hit from Pap at the cost of dealing loads of damage. 120 Dawn Warriors can handle 2-3 hits from Pap, YET they deal monstrous damage as well thanks to Brandish in combination with both Combos, a Soul Charge, and a Red Katana speed weapon. When the lag spike hits, the Nightwalker is more likely to die. HOWEVER, a Dawn Warrior spits on the Nightwalkers squishiness as they just keep on dealing 20-30k Brandishs. That's the gist of my argument. Nothing more, nothing less.

I like how you argue about how the NW lags, but the DW doesn't lag. We can even argue the timing of lag. Right after an attack (you potted before it, so you survive) or right before a 1/1. This ~~can~~ kill the DW or the NW.
Pap is not a real lag-boss anyway.

You can also take into account the time needed to kill a boss, aka DPS. A DW kills faster, so it'll take him less time to kill a boss. Meaning less time to lagg. >..>

The purpose of a lv120 Cygnus char?
- Storage
- KS mule (?)
- Buffing your main
- Well spent time which you have enjoyed to get it to lv120.

IllegallySane

2009-08-29, 05:55 PM

I like how you argue about how the NW lags, but the DW doesn't lag. We can even argue the timing of lag. Right after an attack (you potted before it, so you survive) or right before a 1/1. This ~~can~~ kill the DW or the NW.
Pap is not a real lag-boss anyway.

You can also take into account the time needed to kill a boss, aka DPS. A DW kills faster, so it'll take him less time to kill a boss. Meaning less time to lagg. >..>

The purpose of a lv120 Cygnus char?
- Storage
- KS mule (?)
- Buffing your main
- Well spent time which you have enjoyed to get it to lv120.

That's where my Brandish argument comes in. Why does a Dawn Warrior deal so much damage, and YET is tougher than a Nightwalker? Seems unfair, but that's how it goes for Heroes as well. Without Sharp Eyes, Dawn Warriors are killing faster than a Nightwalker. With Sharp Eyes, Nightwalkers are stronger, but not by a huge degree.

Shady

2009-08-30, 06:20 AM

That's where my Brandish argument comes in. Why does a Dawn Warrior deal so much damage, and YET is tougher than a Nightwalker? Seems unfair, but that's how it goes for Heroes as well. Without Sharp Eyes, Dawn Warriors are killing faster than a Nightwalker. With Sharp Eyes, Nightwalkers are stronger, but not by a huge degree.

My only problem is that you say lag is the reason to choose a certain job. Why lag? Why not fun? What if we enjoy playing a ranged char that can die?

Tamillan

2009-09-02, 12:53 AM

Hmm I think Dawn warrior definetely is the best without buffs from adventurers. To me they are both 12atk pot mules f3.

flalatsat

2009-11-19, 12:17 PM

lol! thank guys

Derimed

2009-11-19, 12:42 PM

I don't think a Cygnus justifies the type of funding a dexless anything usually requires unless you'll make an adventurer to make use of that stuff as well.

When I made my lukless bishop, I made it during the 2x event that kicked off the start of Yollande. It took me a mere 3 weeks to get to lvl 131, and there were people there with a much higher level. This was before the current situation, where XP requirements to gain a particular level were cut down. Leveling a Cygnus to 120 will not take THAT long... so I don't think it's a good investment to go dexless as a Cygnus. Spending like 200 dollars on a character that will level to max in a short period of time seems pointless.

If you are making a Dawn Warrior and then an adventurer Warrior, or a Night Walker and then an adventurer Thief, Dexless makes sense.

Edit: Oh grief, this is a necroed topic. Sorry for posting in it, it was the most recent topic on the training subboards when I did.