Curious how beneficial HP washing is...

[misc86]

for a archmage. I mean, does the HP really help? We have heckishly low HP and seems weird to reset outta MP.

[MetaSeraphim]

HP washing with a Mage is a bad mistake. If anything you need more MP since that is where most of the damage goes.

[Delicae]

that's why we've got magic guard =P

[Eos]

Actually the more HP you have the more damage mguard can soak.

You have to be able to survive 20% of the hit going to your HP.

So if a mage has 2001 HP, mguard can soak 10k damage and leave you with 1 hp.

Needing more MP is pretty much BS. For an AM your ultimate is going to cost you 7k. The piddly ass 5 mp per level you'd lose to washing isn't going to even make a dent in that. Even if you lost a full 1000 MP by your later levels which of these is more useful:

A mage with 3000 HP and 18000 MP that withstand a 15k hit or a mage with 2000 hp and 19000 MP that can take a 10k hit ?

Neither of them is getting any extra mileage for ultimate usage. No other spell in our repetoire has enough of a cost to make a noticable dent in our MP with more than 10k and our MP regen rate. That leaves a lot of 'extra" MP available to burn off right there.

There is a realistic benefit to HP washing a mage, it's not just not one many people feel the need for.

AM's who've HP washed can survive dispel much better than the rest of us because they're less risk of 1HKO by a mob while trying to get their MGuard back up. At lower levels of AM-hood Manon, Griffey and Pap can all steamroll right after you while you're stunned and dispelled. For an HP washed AM, they can survive the hit to pot until they're unstunned.

Ultimately it's up to each AM to decide on thier own if they're doing the sort of things where having that extra HP is going to help them, and if they can afford to waste money on doing something that's not strictly necessary.

[Dusk]

*scratches head* I thought HP washing for mages was 40 mp for a gain of average 8 HP. That's definitely not worth it.

If it's something closer to 1:1 then maybe.

[Eos]

*scratches head* I thought HP washing for mages was 40 mp for a gain of average 8 HP. That's definitely not worth it.

If it's something closer to 1:1 then maybe.

With mguard that is 1:1 if you're right.

8 HP with mguard is a soak of 40.

[Dusk]

With mguard that is 1:1 if you're right.

8 HP with mguard is a soak of 40.

To wash a reasonable amount of HP with that ratio, say, 200, would require 25 washes and lower your MP by 1000 though. That's a big dent on MP recovery with % pots.

[iFrancisco]

Aren't able to reset the Max MP up skill, from first job, then proceed to wash and lose a lower amount of MP? Sure it may be costly to reset those Skill points, but there could be a hugeee benefit from it, if you are able to wash enough.

[Cyanne]

I don't think AMs really need to survive more than they already can, and taking out of mp is bad for potions =/

[Eos]

To wash a reasonable amount of HP with that ratio, say, 200, would require 25 washes and lower your MP by 1000 though. That's a big dent on MP recovery with % pots.


I don't think AMs really need to survive more than they already can, and taking out of mp is bad for potions =/
I disagree - End game mages have approximately 19k or more. Dropping 1000 mp from that is virtually meaningless:

|Ginseng|Mana Bull
Base MP|40%|60%
18000|7200|10800
19000|7600|11400


As I said - It's not a requirement by any means, but it does give them a little more staying power if they really want to do it and it certainly doesn't damage them any.

On the scale of Ultimate usage in particular, which is the primary training method, there is zero impact there and a real potential gain for bossing.

[LittlePrincess]

The piddly ass 5 mp per level you'd lose to washing isn't going to even make a dent in that. Even if you lost a full 1000 MP by your later levels which of these is more useful:


How on earth did you get a 5 mp per lvl lost? Do you mean it costs 5 mp more per lvl to wash due to int gain?

For a mage the amount of mp reduction is based in the skill "max mp increase" and the ammount of intelligence. I tried a couple on a lvl 50 cleric back in the day and she gained about 8 hp and lost about 45 mp every time. For an arch mage this loss would be significantly more due to the amount of int.

Therefore the most efficient way (but not cost effective way) is to reset all your sp in max mp increase into something else before you wash, and reset all your int into something else before you wash. After washing reset it back. To do this you would obviously have to lvl and have a few spair ap laying around (or already applied to hp) because you will have a hard time lvling up once you don't have any int.

Due to the high cost involved (both high mp loss and high dollar cost to avoid high mp loss) most mages do not bother to wash, they just get some hp equips to wear when they want to have more hp (El Nath cape + MoN does wonders, and if you really need more you can always do top, bottom, gloves, sheild though that will reduce atk more significantly).

[Alloy]

What I think? Keep the hp/mp to a 20%/80% ratio. That way, you'd survive hits with the same proportion, making it easier to pot. Or something.


Well, you get my point, don't ya? That's enough for me D:

[Shidoshi]

problem is that you use more MP than the 80% because your skills actually use MP too.

[Kabanaw]

If a ranged class can survive a boss, then so can we without washing. Especially with HB. If you have 2k HP as an AM, with HB you can survive a 16k hit. With a world explorer medal and a MoN, I'd already have 2.3k HP at 133. Unless you can't stand to be 1HKO'd while soloing a boss without MG, there's not much of a point to HP wash an AM.

[FrozNlite]

I completely agree with the idea that ArchMages and Magicians should consider methods to achieve the HP they need to survive stronger hits (something you begin to realize as you get really high leveled and notice how you don't die due to lack of MP for hits, but lack of HP), BUT I also agree that it shouldn't be the main focus of making a Magician, considering the MP is really needed to keep pot costs down as you train to 200.

What would I support, however, that is an ample compromise between these two ideas and something I myself will be doing in the near future? Adding AP to HP starting at 197 once your base INT is maxed (for lukless Magicians only). That gives a small yet nice boost to HP before hitting 200, and when combined with the Maple World Explorer Medal (HOPEFULLY released soon :/), Magicians would be able to reach that 3125 HP base that some say is needed for PB. And hey, with 5000 HP with HB at that point, you can survive 25k hits, which is huge.

[Magus]

It's kind of a moot point considering how no one wants us on boss runs and you don't really need it for training.

[Kabanaw]

It's kind of a moot point considering how no one wants us on boss runs and you don't really need it for training.

Well if we were to.

[Morgana]

I disagree - End game mages have approximately 19k or more. Dropping 1000 mp from that is virtually meaningless

I can't see anyone doing this before like 18x, though. When you only have 10k MP (12x/13x) as opposed to 19k+... 1k is actually a lot.

If I had a LUKless, I'd rather add the extra AP after base INT cap to HP and be satisfied with that, than HP wash. It's free and it does more good than adding LUK or something... Unless you die without safety charms, in which case reducing EXP loss would be a good idea. :f3:

[Eos]

FYI I tested this earlier with an AP reset I was using to get rid of an extra luck I had.

Ratio? 6 hp for 98 mp.

Too steep to be worthwhile there.

[Kabanaw]

FYI I tested this earlier with an AP reset I was using to get rid of an extra luck I had.

Ratio? 6 hp for 98 mp.

Too steep to be worthwhile there.

so about 30 washes for 200 HP, meaning about 3k MP taken out.

Assuming you have 20k MP and 3k HP at 200 (whoo round numbers) that means that you would have 15k survivability, and your MP would take 12k of it. For 1k of extra survivability, you need 200 HP. 200 HP= 3k MP when washing, so you would take 12.8k to MP out of 17k. Another 200 HP would give 14k MP, and you could take a 17k hit with 13.6k taken out of MP.

Anymore washing than this and your survivability will go down. If you washed another 200 HP, you would have 3600 HP, 11k MP, and could take a 14.6k hit.

Mages already have insane survivabilty without washing, so why bother? If you're willing to sacrifice 7 MA from a HT pendant, you can get another 1.5k survivability. And those 19 points you get from 197-200 would give about 152 extra HP. I'd go for the luk.

[Eos]

Assuming you have 20k MP and 3k HP at 200

Most 200 mages I know don't even have 2500 hp. :f6:

[ArbalistMaster]

if I wanted serous hp washing for a mage, I'd probably save up some APs and when you have enough, reset MP increase into Ebolt first. when you're done, reset it back into increase.

[Derimed]

Actually the more HP you have the more damage mguard can soak.

You have to be able to survive 20% of the hit going to your HP.

So if a mage has 2001 HP, mguard can soak 10k damage and leave you with 1 hp.

Needing more MP is pretty much BS. For an AM your ultimate is going to cost you 7k. The piddly ass 5 mp per level you'd lose to washing isn't going to even make a dent in that. Even if you lost a full 1000 MP by your later levels which of these is more useful:

A mage with 3000 HP and 18000 MP that withstand a 15k hit or a mage with 2000 hp and 19000 MP that can take a 10k hit ?

Neither of them is getting any extra mileage for ultimate usage. No other spell in our repetoire has enough of a cost to make a noticable dent in our MP with more than 10k and our MP regen rate. That leaves a lot of 'extra" MP available to burn off right there.

There is a realistic benefit to HP washing a mage, it's not just not one many people feel the need for.

AM's who've HP washed can survive dispel much better than the rest of us because they're less risk of 1HKO by a mob while trying to get their MGuard back up. At lower levels of AM-hood Manon, Griffey and Pap can all steamroll right after you while you're stunned and dispelled. For an HP washed AM, they can survive the hit to pot until they're unstunned.

Ultimately it's up to each AM to decide on thier own if they're doing the sort of things where having that extra HP is going to help them, and if they can afford to waste money on doing something that's not strictly necessary.

The amount of HP you get per wash is not that good for a magician, and you lose something to the tune of 80 MP per wash. The equations are different for the mage than fro the other classes. So yes, you get some HP, but you lose so much MP that it's not worth it.

I don't remember the exact source from this, I think it was RoyalCatManDo's HP washing guide in SW.net. The guide was for bowmen, but people talked about washing for all classes.

Edit: you tested it yourself, I'd say 6 hp for 96 mp is "worthless" rather than "not that good." X_x

[FrozNlite]

Even if the act of washing makes no sense for Magicians (I agree that that high of a ratio is too ridiculous), putting those 19 points between 197 and 200 as a lukless Magician still makes more sense than pumping MP or LUK, in my opinion. Sure, with the extra luk, zhelm, and +1 HT pendant, you can start scrolling some nice Maker'd shoes or overalls, but that's not too much of power boost, which, in the end, doesn't really matter.

What matters at bossing? The stronger ArchMage who dies to a hit or the slightly weaker one who can take the hit? Pump those 19 into HP.

[Kabanaw]

Most 200 mages I know don't even have 2500 hp. :f6:

Assuming an MoN and an adventurer medal you would.


Even if the act of washing makes no sense for Magicians (I agree that that high of a ratio is too ridiculous), putting those 19 points between 197 and 200 as a lukless Magician still makes more sense than pumping MP or LUK, in my opinion. Sure, with the extra luk, zhelm, and +1 HT pendant, you can start scrolling some nice Maker'd shoes or overalls, but that's not too much of power boost, which, in the end, doesn't really matter.

What matters at bossing? The stronger ArchMage who dies to a hit or the slightly weaker one who can take the hit? Pump those 19 into HP.

My point is that those 19 points won't do much anyways. You'd get about 150 HP from those points, meaning you could take an extra 750 dmg. You're survivability is a little higher, but considering with HB a lvl 200 AM can already take any hit in the game 750 dmg isn't much.

Really, I guess it's personal opinion. You could go with having a little more survivability or using lvl 50 equips for a little more extra INT.

[Derimed]

Even if the act of washing makes no sense for Magicians (I agree that that high of a ratio is too ridiculous), putting those 19 points between 197 and 200 as a lukless Magician still makes more sense than pumping MP or LUK, in my opinion. Sure, with the extra luk, zhelm, and +1 HT pendant, you can start scrolling some nice Maker'd shoes or overalls, but that's not too much of power boost, which, in the end, doesn't really matter.

What matters at bossing? The stronger ArchMage who dies to a hit or the slightly weaker one who can take the hit? Pump those 19 into HP.

I think if you want HP close to 200, you're better off scrolling a good Int Bosshunter Gi, (White Scrolls, amirite?) and wearing a Naricain Pendant. Getting that sort of HP by washing or placing AP in HP would be very counterproductive.

[Flirtini]

if you feel the need, wear hp gear in place of regular gear. your dmg won't decrease by THAT much and you'll survive better in bosses ;] unlike non-mage classes, our spell-formulas aren't heavily dependent on our int/ma.

no need to waste money on hpwashing a mage.

[Daddy20]

Having more hp is definitely nice. But it's not worth washing as it simply takes way too much mp.
I did put my last AP before 200 in HP though, since all other stats were pretty useless. That, and a HP scrolled rat mouth, lvl200 medal, MoN and some glasses put me at 31xx HP, which is just over 5k HP with HB. That's enough for me, and I don't have to wash to get that much and I'm not sacrificing any damage, other than 5 matk from switching to MoN instead of HTpend.

[SethElite]

If your HP washing a mage, your doing it wrong.