Yes, the good ol' Dk controversy again

[JessicaChen]

Let me first introuduce the position i am in so that who ever this might regard can comprehend the angle i am coming from.

I have a 94 crusader and want to restart another warrior. Probably roll it into a Dragon Knight. Decently well funded, stats for the new warrior is so far so good. It's at a current level of 21 and most likely going to go hardcore grinding.

I am very fimiliar how a dragon knight operates and etc but it always boils down to this questions to probably many other maplers such as myself making a dragon knight. Hybrid? or Pure Spear? Sorry Polearm doesn't quite cut it for me, no offense =P.

Hybrid probably the most favored and well known of them all. I understand why so many would choose this path. "Screw Final Attack! Who needs that when your a DK and it's completely useless for DKs" Assuming your high enough level and you have Dragon Fury and Crusher both maxed out. What is the difference of Fury and Crusher when it comes down to a pack of mob? I understand Crusher can only hit 3 but more well designed to hit single targets. While Fury can any number of mobs where as it only a fraction of Crusher's damage.

Here's a scenario for you all to see what im trying to get at.

Your a hybrid Dk and have both Fury and Crusher maxed out.
You just rallied a group of Himes and you have your spear out.
You really think like most of us are going try to swatch our spears for a Polearm and go through all that exit combat hassle? No right? Your just going to go "Screw it, ill just stick with my spear and crusher them"
And your entire day of training at Himes just progresses on like that.

So what was the purpose of having Fury and being Hybrid? And suffer through 2nd job and level without Final Attack when that chance of using a Polearm as DK doesnt come quite often?


Pure Spear, probably the easy way out for spearmans to Dk and suffer through 3rd job.
You get to level with Final Attack and still get your Dragon Crusher.
Sometimes, you see a huge mob and you kind of kick yourself and wish you were hybrid.
In addition, lacking variety of combat, such as just spamming Crusher can really kill your mood to train. Thus holding you back.

Yes! i know im somewhat contradicting myself on these two comparsions, but i want you to see where i am coming from and my thought behind this. Maybe you guys can help me choose based on my thoughts.

To be Hybrid or To be Pure Spear? =D

Thank you very much.

[butterfλi]

When you train in a spot, you shouldn't be switching weapons. It's a waste of time which slower down your training. If you're gonna go hybrid, different places calls for different weapons--that's all.

pole arm places : wolf spiders, himes, gobies
spear places : everywhere else

The "downside" to hybrid if that you can't use the secondary attacks of the weapon (spear fury and pole arm crusher). Like in your scenario: if you're holding a spear and gathered a huge mob of himes, you can kill them with spear crusher but you kill them slower. Similarly, if you're holding a pole arm and there's only 1-2 monsters around you; you can still kill, it's just slower. That's just the annoying thing about playing a hybrid from my experience. If you go pure spear, you can easily switch from spear crusher to spear fury.

[Xelstyle]

There are some points that are quite...invalid.



Your a hybrid Dk and have both Fury and Crusher maxed out.
You just rallied a group of Himes and you have your spear out.
You really think like most of us are going try to swatch our spears for a Polearm and go through all that exit combat hassle? No right? Your just going to go "Screw it, ill just stick with my spear and crusher them"
And your entire day of training at Himes just progresses on like that.

First of all, why the heck would you have a Spear out at Himes?
Unless you're too lazy to open up your inventory to equip your polearm, or don't have one, you should be using one.


What is the difference of Fury and Crusher when it comes down to a pack of mob? I understand Crusher can only hit 3 but more well designed to hit single targets. While Fury can any number of mobs where as it only a fraction of Crusher's damage.

Assuming that both are facing a mob of 6 Himes with equal stats:
S.Crusher:
1530% total damage
PA. Fury:
1500% total damage

Now it may seem like Crusher wins in this scenario, but don't forget the speed comparison.
In that case, PA Fury wins overall.


So what was the purpose of having Fury and being Hybrid? And suffer through 2nd job and level without Final Attack when that chance of using a Polearm as DK doesnt come quite often?
Actually, FA isn't that big of a deal.
The pros and cons kind of cancel each other out in my opinion.
Also, not much of a chance to use PA?
Here are some spots:
Wolf Spiders
Gryphons
Water Goblins
Pirates
Ghost Pirates
Himes
Red and Blue Kents

[butterfλi]

Assuming that both are facing a mob of 6 Himes with equal stats:
S.Crusher:
1530% total damage
PA. Fury:
1500% total damage

Now it may seem like Crusher wins in this scenario, but don't forget the speed comparison.
In that case, PA Fury wins overall.


I think crusher and sky skies are faster/as fast as a slow speed fury.. since there aren't any normal speed pole arms... I think.

Also, with crusher, when you have a monster that only has like 2k hp left, you have to waste another crusher, which is 3 stabs to kill that one monster. It's like crusher hitting only 2 monsters instead of 3. This really sucks when you're on the border line of between 2-3hit killing, 3-4hit killing, etc. Fury though, just swings and hits 6 things no matter what.

[Stereo]

When you train in a spot, you shouldn't be switching weapons. It's a waste of time which slower down your training. If you're gonna go hybrid, different places calls for different weapons--that's all.

pole arm places : wolf spiders, himes, gobies
spear places : everywhere else

The "downside" to hybrid if that you can't use the secondary attacks of the weapon (spear fury and pole arm crusher). Like in your scenario: if you're holding a spear and gathered a huge mob of himes, you can kill them with spear crusher but you kill them slower. Similarly, if you're holding a pole arm and there's only 1-2 monsters around you; you can still kill, it's just slower. That's just the annoying thing about playing a hybrid from my experience. If you go pure spear, you can easily switch from spear crusher to spear fury.

Except neither Spear Fury or Polearm Crusher are ever worth using for their damage.

Spear Fury has a good range and hits fast, but you don't need to max it for that. A hybrid build has room for 30 Spear Crusher, 30 Polearm Fury, 30 Roar, 30 Sacrifice, 20 ER, and 11 Spear Fury, and if you don't like that it's pretty reasonable to drop Sacrifice and just get Spear Fury.
Polearm Crusher is purely for show - it will not outdamage Polearm Fury even on single targets, and you can't make the Normal vs. Slow speed comparison, so it is a fixed ratio - 2 Crushers per 3 Furies.



FYI FA is pretty much garnish on 2nd job. You won't train faster, unless getting it motivates you. It actually reduces damage on the mobs you should be training on, I'd consider skipping it on even a pure weapon Spearman (unless like Polearm Crusher, you just want it for the looks).

['Lexy]

First of all, why the heck would you have a Spear out at Himes?
Unless you're too lazy to open up your inventory to equip your polearm, or don't have one, you should be using one.
I grinded my way through more than twenty-five levels at Himes without switching my 119 FairFrozen out for my 117 Zedbug. :eek:

...of course, I was still maxing Pole Arm Fury during much of those levels, but that's irrelevant.


FYI FA is pretty much garnish on 2nd job. You won't train faster, unless getting it motivates you. It actually reduces damage on the mobs you should be training on, I'd consider skipping it on even a pure weapon Spearman (unless like Polearm Crusher, you just want it for the looks).

Not necessarily.

As a 1.5 Hybrid DK, the extra attack from FA helped me immensely as I pounded my way through 6x at Coolies.

[Fat]

kk so, for starters, FA -is- useless, it does NOT help you train faster, i've trained at fog and coolies from 50-80, since fog was the best place out when i was that level. FA didn't help at either places.
also, spear fury isn't really useful, unless you train at goby until 120 or so, which is what i did, since himes wasnt out, that's the only time ive ever wished i was pure spear.
also, PA fury -IS- better than spear crusher at himes, no doubt about it. i'm 145 and i still train there for the most part(less now, since my training partner just hit 120 and she hits 39k with level 1 genesis O_O)
Hybrid is probably better overall, since you can use PA at himes, and spear at skeletrons, and those are the 2 most important training locations.

p.s. hi milf

[Dusk]

Spear Fury should be left with 1 point so you can use it for grouping as Spear-user. Polearm Crusher is absolutely useless, it's better to use Fury on single targets. I think Sacrifice does more damage on single-targets if you're PA, I'd have to check.

You don't swap weapons in mid-battle the way you described. You take the PA to Himes and you train with it. You take the spear to Skelegons and you train with it.

Edit: Currently, spears are the best endgame choice because of the nature of the Dragon Canyon maps. They're not created with small area mobbing in mind, so Polearms get screwed royally. However, keep in mind that other maps may come out.

[HiiEN]

I had no choice but to pump FA back then when coolies were the best exp =\

Anyways, you shouldn't be changing weapons on a map if you're hybrid, I'm 99% sure there's always a map designated for one type of weapon and not both. PA will only get you so far unless they release new maps, and spear will carry you through later levels as well as bossing.

[aznegglover]

Um.. I wouldn't be using a Spear at Himes in the first place.

[Xelstyle]

Edit: Currently, spears are the best endgame choice because of the nature of the Dragon Canyon maps. They're not created with small area mobbing in mind, so Polearms get screwed royally. However, keep in mind that other maps may come out.

While Spears gain the advantage over PAs, later on when both DKs are 170+, have great equips and can both 1-2hko Skeles, it doesn't really matter anymore.

[RFSurg]

To 1hit kill a skele with PA fury and max Berserk you'd need at all least a 17.5k range(max to make it possible, PA min to make it 100%). With spear crusher you only need 8.8k in your range. PA DKs need a little less than twice the range to do what a spear DK can(though they can mob six, mobs of six aren't very easy to make at skeles).

PAs aren't much better exp at himes and spears are much better exp at many other maps. The speed difference can be made up with sky skis. That said, PA crusher is worthless and spear fury isn't useful past the first level for mobbing. I'd go hybrid with your skills since the pure skills aren't that useful but I don't really see the point of buying/switching to a PA past wolf spiders maybe.

[Xelstyle]

PAs aren't much better exp at himes and spears are much better exp at many other maps. The speed difference can be made up with sky skis. That said, PA crusher is worthless and spear fury isn't useful past the first level for mobbing. I'd go hybrid with your skills since the pure skills aren't that useful but I don't really see the point of buying/switching to a PA past wolf spiders maybe.

The only other maps I know of that Spears are better at are:
Birks
Black Kents
Gobies up to a certain point
Dragon Turtles
Wyvern

Anyways, you can't really make up the lack of speed for Crusher.
If you used a Normal(6) weapon, and compared it to a slow(7) weapon, you'd the difference would probably be an extra ~4 attacks in a minute?

[Renascentia]

[color=#a000e0]Except neither Spear Fury or Polearm Crusher are ever worth using for their damage.

I'm a spear fury fan and I truely believe its really usefull. Here is a pictur of my spear fury damage using a cider:

http://i38.tinypic.com/2wlzcxu.jpg

For me its extremely usefull because I'm capable of finishing skeletons with 1 rush 1 spear crusher and 1 spear fury wich comes out as a smooth combination. And on a lower level it would help me finish of newties

I suggest that if you make a DK you would use the build I followed wich is:

30 spear crusher
30 spear fury
30 pole arm fury
30 sacrifice
30 dragon roar
1 elemental resistance

Dragon blood and level 20 elemental resistance aren't that usefull and I'm planning to max ER after level 180-190 if I will ever get that far.

[RFSurg]

The only other maps I know of that Spears are better at are:
Birks
Black Kents
Gobies up to a certain point
Dragon Turtles
Wyvern

Anyways, you can't really make up the lack of speed for Crusher.
If you used a Normal(6) weapon, and compared it to a slow(7) weapon, you'd the difference would probably be an extra ~4 attacks in a minute?

Spears are better at newties and skeles and generally all of the best training spots. Using a sky ski is a noticably difference in attack, I don't know the exact numbers but the difference is very easy to feel.

For PAs to beat spears you need the uncommon large mob of 4+ and even then spears output more dps unless you have a mob of 5-6 which is even more uncommon.

[Stereo]

I'm a spear fury fan and I truely believe its really usefull. Here is a pictur of my spear fury damage using a cider:

http://i38.tinypic.com/2wlzcxu.jpg

For me its extremely usefull because I'm capable of finishing skeletons with 1 rush 1 spear crusher and 1 spear fury wich comes out as a smooth combination. And on a lower level it would help me finish of newties

It's not useful because of the damage, it's useful because it hits faster than Crusher. It does roughly the same amount as 1 single hit out of Spear Crusher, so if you are taking down 75%+ of a monster's HP on the first hit then it's useful to finish off, cause it's faster than a second Crusher.

I'd kinda agree with your build but I don't know what you do with Sacrifice, it takes off pretty big amounts of HP (I've heard upward of 4k on a powerful DK).


Fury is better when it's hitting more targets than Crusher, which due to range differences can happen on 1-2 monsters. Of course, it's also better on mobs of 5-6.

[Xelstyle]

Spears are better at newties and skeles and generally all of the best training spots. Using a sky ski is a noticably difference in attack, I don't know the exact numbers but the difference is very easy to feel.

For PAs to beat spears you need the uncommon large mob of 4+ and even then spears output more dps unless you have a mob of 5-6 which is even more uncommon.

I asked Senyain about what attack I would need for a slow(7) spear to be equal to a normal (6) 105 sky ski's DPM, and the reply was something to the effect of:

You'd need a 113 Slow(7) spear to equal a 105 normal(6) spear.
However, the increase in the number of attacks isn't that big since Crusher is already quite slow.
The difference would be 4~7 extra attacks per minute, and that's only if you're attacking without any interruptions.
Also, the extra attack on the slow spear will help with your KB.

For PAs, I'm focusing on the 3rd job at the moment.
I know that Spears become dominate since they are the endgame's preferred weapon, but PAs are best during 3rd job.

I'll list once again which maps you would train on, that a PA would dominate at.
Gryphons
Water Goblins
Pirates
Ghost Pirates
Wolf Spiders
Red and Blue Kents
Goby
Bains
Himes

As you can see, these mobs of 4+ aren't as uncommon as you think.

[Stereo]

'll list once again which maps you would train on, that a PA would dominate at.
Gryphons
Water Goblins
Pirates
Ghost Pirates
Wolf Spiders
Red and Blue Kents
Goby
Bains
Himes

As you can see, these mobs of 4+ aren't as uncommon as you think.

The problem, really, is that Himes are the only place you'd train from level 95-200 using Polearm Fury. Spears get half a dozen end-level maps above that.

[Xelstyle]

The problem, really, is that Himes are the only place you'd train from level 95-200 using Polearm Fury. Spears get half a dozen end-level maps above that.

And answering the TS' question, that is why you would go hybrid.

[ThisIsSal]

I really really wish that I had max spear fury.

My level 1 is decent but i'd love to be able to finish off them stubborn skeles with a SF all the time.

i'd toss sac out the window since it's the most useless thing i've ever had the misfortune of adding into. I've literally used it maybe twice from 10x-148 and both times only to see what kind of damage it would do.

[Fat]

I really really wish that I had max spear fury.

My level 1 is decent but i'd love to be able to finish off them stubborn skeles with a SF all the time.

i'd toss sac out the window since it's the most useless thing i've ever had the misfortune of adding into. I've literally used it maybe twice from 10x-148 and both times only to see what kind of damage it would do.

if you're pure spear, than it's kinda useless, although pretty nice if you overpot and want to berserk again.

regarding the DPM difference between ski's and other spears. the thing is that the crushers you can squeeze in with a ski arent worth the extra damage, especially if you're borderline 2-3 hits (as i am)
point is, if you can 2hko, no matter what weapon it is, just stick to it.
in general, hybrid gets all benefits and no disadvantages almost, it opens up a wide range of training spots (you should go goby > hime > skele, and PA at himes and/or goby is great)

[Renascentia]

It's not useful because of the damage, it's useful because it hits faster than Crusher. It does roughly the same amount as 1 single hit out of Spear Crusher, so if you are taking down 75%+ of a monster's HP on the first hit then it's useful to finish off, cause it's faster than a second Crusher.

I'd kinda agree with your build but I don't know what you do with Sacrifice, it takes off pretty big amounts of HP (I've heard upward of 4k on a powerful DK).


Fury is better when it's hitting more targets than Crusher, which due to range differences can happen on 1-2 monsters. Of course, it's also better on mobs of 5-6.

It's usefull for its range and attack speed but in order to be usefull it does have to do good damage. And for sacrifice I agree it's not the best skill the only purpose i use it for is trying to get the highest single target damage for fun and to get into my serk HP on HT. But since I remade a 2nd DK (my first DK had max ER) I consider ER useless at the end It has been overcredited due the fact that you were supposed to get it for training at grims but it doesnt have any use nowadays I believe since it only reduces damage on a limited amount of magic types

[Kalovale]

I believe the posts above pretty much explained it, but I think I might say this myself. I'm a purespear and I don't regret my choice, but I know I would be more happy to have gone hybrid, spear training at Himes during 12x really sucks.

Another point is that, in order to be on par with a Hero (or even outperform him), you need Polearm Fury + Berserk, it is better than anything a Hero has to offer in a big mob like at Himes, if you ever miss out on Polearm Fury, sorry, they own you bad >.>

[ThisIsSal]

if you're pure spear, than it's kinda useless, although pretty nice if you overpot and want to berserk again.

everyone is pure spear when you leave himes.

or might as well be.

I'm hybrid, though.

[AlterWolfie]

There might be another himes type map later on. Who knows.
-AlterWolfie, who doesn't see any point to going pure besides getting sacrifice. His analogy is always of a guy cutting off his leg to be 'unique'. "Lool look at me I only hev one leg and I'm proud of it!!!"

An easy attack skill build is

30 on all attacks beside sacrifice, and thats 150 sp. (Roar, S. Fury, P. Fury, S. Crusher, P. Crusher).

Personally, getting 20 ER and skipping out on PA crusher is more worth it, Cause even though ER is of limited use, it is of use in the current 'End game' area, unlike PA crusher or even really Sacrifice later on (if you can't KB with Crusher +Berserk, you probably don't want to be Sacrificing to KB). Obviously you can stick your extra points on whatever you like, perhaps a couple Sacrifice if you want something to get into Berserk, and maybe 1 on Crash for kicks.

[viperxuat]

I lean more towards pure spear dk. I myself and pure spear, but I have never tried hybrid so I can't tell you how well it works. From what I have seen, using a polearm would be fairly rare compared to the amount of time one would use a spear. In all of MS's bosses, spears have a huge advantage over polearms. Also, going pure spear, you would only need 1 weapon, instead of 2. I don't imagine someone would be using polearms much after himes, unless it proved more useful for mobbing at Peak. Where as spears you would use pretty much always. As for Final Attack, it is not very good at all for spearman/Dks. It seems like it would be helpful, but when it kicks in with slashblast it can really slow you down, especially when both slashblast and the final attack do a swing instead of a stab. However, if both a powerstrike and its resulting final attack are both stabs, you could kill a bit faster. My suggestion is to go pure spear seeing as you will be using spears more often than polearms, and you could get by with only a spear, and not a spear and polearm. Also the fact that crusher is significantly strong on bosses than fury.

[Ray]

Hybrid. Get spear fury.
I personally think that just the chance that a new map where PA fury might be more useful could be realeased makes it more worthwhile. I doubt sacrifice is really needed. Theres never a time in the game where KB is a bigger priority than killing.

Do you want to take a chance at pure spear and then regret it? I don't think any DK regrets going hybrid. They might regret not having spear fury, but no one said you had to be pure spear to have spear fury.