Hamstring?

[Nightblade]

I've heard good things on bowmasters as far as Sharp Eyes, Bow Expert, Hurricane, and Phoenix (or whatever it is called <.<). Concentrate, from what I've heard, is good but not worth immediate attention (mostly due to cooldown) and that Dragon's Breath is good for a 1pt'er at first, but will get maxed toward the end of a BM's progression.

Nothing on Hamstring though. On paper, chance to reduce incoming speed looks nice, but I don't know about application. It is a buff, so you're not attacking with it, making it seem quite useful.

[Kevvl]

I know of a few Bowmasters who got a few points in it. Apparently it's very useful, but not if you can KB the monsters you're fighting at a high rate.

[Retalion]

I've heard good things on bowmasters as far as Sharp Eyes, Bow Expert, Hurricane, and Phoenix (or whatever it is called <.<). Concentrate, from what I've heard, is good but not worth immediate attention (mostly due to cooldown) and that Dragon's Breath is good for a 1pt'er at first, but will get maxed toward the end of a BM's progression.

Nothing on Hamstring though. On paper, chance to reduce incoming speed looks nice, but I don't know about application. It is a buff, so you're not attacking with it, making it seem quite useful.

You heard good things about phoenix? Who've you been talking to? >_> I find it almost the crappiest skill in our 4th job arsenal for these reasons:

1. It replaces hawk and doesnt stun. Bowmasters already dont have freeze and almost rely exclusively on stun. Using Phoenix means we cant stun.
2. It has a tendancy to attack mobs that are behind you, aggroing monsters you dont want to attack yet

Phoenix is only useful on monsters you cant stun (basically bosses) or monsters that you can kill fast enough that they dont have much of a chance to attack/run you over so you dont waste too many pots/stun doesnt have much use as its dead by the time its stunned.

Back on the Hamstring topic, I'll start off by saying this. How many times have you seen a jr. newtie move?

Correct me if Im wrong but bow masters have their skills planned out up to 150 with "no brainers" (30 SE, 30 Hurricane, 30 Bow Expert). You can throw in 10-20 MW in there too, meaning they're lets just say around 155 when they'd start pumping hamstring? Right now, there arent many monsters with enough hp that hamstring would benefit (meaning most of them, by the time you slow them, they'll be dead).

What about monsters with more hp you ask? Well, those are for the most part bosses and it doesnt work on bosses (to my knowledge anyways).

The debate between what to get after the core skills is about Phoenix vs. Concentrate (http://sleepywood.net/forum/showthread.php?t=1461022). Hamstring has no place in it and is in the general consensus pretty useless.

[Nightblade]

I heard for pure damage output, Phoenix wasn't a bad choice. Lose of mob control, however... probably not worth it. Thanks for the advice on the skill builds, though I'm not sure when 10 MW would be the most efficient use of SP. I'm sure at some point, the advantage gained from increasing one of the "no brainers" would decrease, making MW be the optimal choice at that point. Heck, around 120-130, you'll have 550-600 base dex? 30 dex on top of that is a pretty hefty power boost, but where it fits in is a better question.

[Kevvl]

Also considering the extreme boost from adding into Hurricane, Sharp Eyes, and Mastery, MW doesn't do much XD

[Dusk]

Stun/Freeze was never really an issue for me before I visited Newties. Life after Newties probably won't require stunning much, either. I like Phoenix.

[Technolink]

Well you have to note that you'll be partying with other classes that have 10-20MW, most notably NLs tend to get it pretty early.

[Beaner]

Well you have to note that you'll be partying with other classes that have 10-20MW, most notably NLs tend to get it pretty early.

i like to party with low lv bishops and solo anegos. i recomend some MW after the basic skills.

and hey at least you didnt get lol blind.

[Bravedancing]

Also considering the extreme boost from adding into Hurricane, Sharp Eyes, and Mastery, MW doesn't do much XD

I have 21 Hurricane, max BE, and 28 SE, with no MW yet. But I can tell the difference in damage when I party with someone with even 6 - 9 MW.

MW will be next for me.

I have no plans after that... I can't find the stupid green book I need for Concentrate and I hate going to sharks, so I may just go with Hamstring just because I can and I'm not good at saving points for stuff.

[Ishida_Sucks]

hamstring doesn't work on bosses....like anego or tengu. <---FAIL

i mean hey, a passive skill that reduces a monsters speed by 60% on EVERY attack you do is amazing! however it is litterally last on the list of important things. i wont put ANY points into it until...185?

yea...even by your 15X you're so strong that you can kill skelegons waaaay faster than they can attack 9unless theyre prebuffed) and in this case, reducing their speed is pointless. i'd rather have max phoenix and 21 DP to kb 6 monsters than have any points into hamstring (it might be a different story if i could use it to slow down "run away train" bosses though)

same principal applies to our phoenix friend. around your 16X or 17X (when you'll start to max it) you're so strong that it's okay to not stun anymore, and phoenix will add a good amount of raw power to your attacks.

in my opinion the order of importance is: (NOTE: this is in no way a skill build what so ever...)
1) the trinity (SoA, SE, BM)
2) 1 DP
3) MW
4) Concentrate
5) phoenix and DP
6) focus
7) ex hackers
8) conspiracy HT runs
9) lolhamstring

[Archer4Ever]

Nothing on Hamstring though. On paper, chance to reduce incoming speed looks nice, but I don't know about application. It is a buff, so you're not attacking with it, making it seem quite useful.

Here are some facts about hamstring:
- Hamstring is supportive skill, not passive or active.
- Works great on long ranged attacking mobs. ex: Skelegon, Skelosaurus.
- Save your pot usage by 50% or more at Skelegon, Skelosaurus.
- Combine with Dragon's Breath and Hurricane, there no way mob will have a chance to attack.

(Based on training at Skelegon, Skelosaurus)

I haven't find any usefulness of phoenix so far.
- At Skelegon, Skelosaurus. Phoenix barely have chance to attack mob. Thanks to hurricane.
- At Manon & griffey, hawk works better than phoenix, stun Kentaurus instead of killing them.
- At Pianus, phoenix does MISS MISS MISS on the bombs
- At Papu, phoenix can't do over 10k on the bombs even it is maxed.
- At horntail, you will get yelled if you summon phoenix out.

[Shidoshi]

if i get it correctly, hamstring is like slow that mages have but with a success chance, more mp cost, more speed reduced and does not work on bosses?

I won't botter discussing much since the closest i am from hamstring is my level 39 crossbow =D (yeah i know, xbows don't have hamstring)

[FelixTM]

- Save your pot usage by 50% or more at Skelegon, Skelosaurus.


That isn't a fact so much as it is an extreme exaggeration. At least 50%-60% (or more) of my pot usage at Skeles comes from touch damage (whether it be them spawning directly on me or running into me while attacking others). I know, with absolute certainty, that Hamstring wouldn't reduce my pot costs by even 10% at Skeles. The beam attacks I do get hit by are very rarely from Skeles I aggro'd and did not finish killing (which are the ones Hamstring would actually apply to). If I get hit by a Skele beam, it's because I'm too close and it decided to beam immediately, instead of powering up first - which is way less often than power up first.

Maybe you train completely differently than I do, I don't know. However, care to explain your exaggerated number?

---

During my training session tonight, I paid special attention to anything and everything that happened. Not that I had any doubts, but I just can not see how Hamstring would save me even ONE pot the whole night. It's a completely worthless skill.

- I kill Skeles before they ever even get a chance to BLINK (loltheyhavenoeyes)
- Skeles use their power up first...and die before they do anything
- I rarely ever leave a Skele once I start attacking it (meaning, a Slow effect would be pointless)
- If I do get interrupted by another Skele, I can almost always avoid any Skele beam coming at me by moving back a bit (in that case, my skill at Skele training > Slow)
- If there's a mob of 3-4 and I decide to DB, I can kill them all before they Skele beam, anyways

I'm really not seeing it, sir. At most, and I'll be generous, Hamstring could save me up to (maybe) 5% of my usual pot costs per session. I doubt that, even.