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Anyoneisgod
2008-07-02, 03:25 PM
Copied with permission
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Early AR seems to be constantly under criticism around here as failing by mid-late 8x, so I'm posting training data I've been carefully collecting. I took 11 AR as soon as possible on my Ranger with intent to march off to Pirates. I was pretty goddamn nervous about this build, since nobody had posted much solid Pirate-AR data yet, WhiteAsIce had been running around posting the godawful hp:exp ratios at Pirates, I was hardly enthusastic about navigating Gryphons, everyone talks about crashing in 8x without max Strafe, etc etc.

My build order, levels 70-90:
1 Strafe
5 Mortal Blow
11 Arrow Rain
8 Strafe
1 Inferno
20 Strafe
6 Puppet
21 Arrow Rain
8 Hawk

Recommended build order, levels 70-90
1 Strafe
5 Mortal Blow
21 Arrow Rain
20 Strafe
6 Puppet
9 Hawk

Levels 70-72 I didn't record hard data on, but they consisted of 1 Strafe, 5 MB, 1 AR, and were spent mostly at Dummies for ~16-20%/hour, partied using an HS mule (aka cheating). I'm sure they would have been faster with more Strafe first, but considering the rest of my results, I think that I made an excellent trade off. They were hardly hell levels.

Multiple percents/hour under the same listing just mean I took multiple timed tests in that location/party situation. Attack range is always with Warrior Elixer on. Solo rates are probably what are of interest here, so they're listed first. I used an HS mule in every party, and most people wouldn't have one available, so ignore those if you like, I recorded them for my own benefit. All solo rates are without HS.

There are some levels where I don't have solo data, just because I partied the entire way through (hey, it was faster), but it can be inferred that my solo rates on those levels should be somewhere between the previous listed one and the next listed one. Common sense.

Code:


Range(W.Elixer) SP Location/(Party)/Percent
Level 73 (942 - 1665) 4 Rain Gryphons (solo) 19.92% Pirates (solo) 18.54%

Level 74 (953 - 1686) 7 Rain Gryphons (solo) 20.04% 19.23%

Level 75 (964 - 1707) 10 Rain Gryphons (solo) 18.54% 18.75%

Level 76 (992 - 1754) 11 Rain 3Strafe Gryphons (solo) 19.02% 18.57% Pirates (solo) 20.02% 19.52%

Level 77 (1004 - 1775) 6 Strafe Pirates (79 I/L, HS Mule) 27.06%

Level 78 (1015 - 1797) 8 Strafe 1 Inf Pirates (79 I/L, HS Mule) 27.56%

Level 79 (1023 - 1809) 11 Strafe Pirates (118 Ranger, HS Mule) 25.80% Pirates (79 I/L, HS Mule) 25.86%

Level 80 (1085 - 1915) 14 Strafe Pirates (solo) 17.22% Pirates (Ranger 81, HS Mule) 19.26% 18.99% Pirates (I/L 82, HS Mule) 21.33%

Level 81 (1097 - 1937) 17 Strafe Pirates (solo) 16.47% Pirates (Ranger 82 [10AR], HS Mule) 21.24% Pirates (I/L 80, HS Mule) 23.76%

Level 82 (1109 - 1959) 20 Strafe Pirates (solo) 17.56% 15.92% Black Squids (solo) 18.42% Squids (100 F/P, no HS) 20.28%

Level 83 (1121 - 1982) 3 Puppet Black Squids (solo) 17.94% Pirates (solo) 14.83% Pirates (Ranger 108, HS Mule) 20.22%

Level 84 (1133 - 2004) 6 Puppet Squids (solo) 15.12% 16.84% Black Squids (solo) 17.92% 18.41% Pirates (solo) 14.52% Gobies (118 Sniper, HS Mule) 26.4%

Level 85 (1155 - 2044) 14 Rain Gobies (118 Sniper, HS Mule) 26.76%

Level 86 (1162 - 2057) 17 Rain Pirates (solo) 14.37% Black Squids (solo) 19.08% 17.55% Pirates (I/L 83, CB 93, HS Mule) 12.60% [epic fail] Gobies (118 Sniper, HS Mule) 24.66%

Level 87 (1179 - 2088) 20 Rain Gobies (141 Ranger, HS Mule) 21.75%

Level 88 (1191 - 2111) 21 Rain 2 Hawk Gobies (141 Ranger, HS Mule) 21.51%

Level 89 (1203 - 2133) 5 Hawk Black Squids (solo) 17.34% 18.18% Gobies (119 Sniper, HS Mule) 27.36% Gobies (141 Ranger, HS Mule) 22.44%

Level 90 (1215 - 2155) 8 Hawk Gobies (120 Sniper, HS Mule) 21.24%


Storyboard version of the data table: I got the best solo results from Dummies with 1 Strafe until level 73 (better than I did at Zombie or FoG parties). When I got Arrow Rain to 4, and tried both Pirates and Gryphons. Gryphons were better exp and I stayed there until level 76, when I got Rain to 11. I then revisited Pirates, and they were noticably faster solo than were Gryphons solo.

I stayed at Pirates from 76-82, using 11 Arrow Rain (and 1 Inferno for a rare lure), pumping pure Strafe, which was almost never actually fired at Pirates whatsoever. Partying with either one I/L Mage or another AR/AE bowmen was more effective than soloing, but the solo exp was still very good. Pot costs were hefty, but just a couple of average Scarabs mostly took care of it.

At 82 (20 Strafe) I tried Black Squids for the first time, and made consistently better solo exp there. I think I moved a level too late, even. I matched up Pirates and Black Squids several more times after 82, because I resumed moving toward 21 Rain (preparing to Goby early), but they never overtook Black Squids again, even partied using a HS mule.

Rest is sort of disinteresting, I worked Rain to 21 (level 88) and started into Hawk so that I could rush Gobies by early 9x. Raising AR toward 21 was only a little help at Black Squids (trixy Puppeting, the occasional Goby house), but my lowest timed result there was still a hefty 17.34% at level 89, then 14.34% at level 91 (unlisted). Hawk was high enough to leave them for good at that point anyway, and make better exp either soloing or partying at Gobies.

Points of interest:

* At no point from 70-90 did I have to make less than 16%/hour soloing somewhere. My solo rates ranged from 16.47% - 20.04% clear from 70-90, and this ignores the fact that Pirates (my lowest solo point) should yield even higher results in parties or splits, even without HS. Unfortunately, I have no HS-less party results to report to support this. Regardless, there were no real "hell levels" to speak of whatsoever in this build.

* Gryphons were a surprisingly fun training ground, once I learned to navigate the map properly, which took about an hour. I had expected them to be hellish, to kb me out of my rotation all the time, etc, but this really wasn't the case. It was actually really a refreshing place to train. Also, some ledges were better served by Strafe than AR, contrary to most of what I'd read.

* The point in Inferno at level 78 was probably unnecessary, and should have either been earlier to help at Gryphons, or later when preparing myself to Goby. It just appealed at certain moments when soloing Pirates, so I took it impulsively.

* Black Squids were timing better than Pirates at level 82 when I first tried them. I probably should have moved there at level 81 (17 Strafe, or potentially 18 without Inferno). In fact, if I had, my lowest solo result might have been higher, since it was at level 81.

* Apparently I fail at Lethal Squids; I tried it at level 84, once I had 6 Puppet; got the Lethal Squid Puppet/sniping location tour from another Ranger, tried timing it and refining it as best I could, and still came up much faster (and cheaper) at Black Squids (Gorge 1). Seeing no reason that should really change as I increased AR/Hawk, I returned to Black Squids and never looked back, moving directly from there to Gobies.

* This build didn't finish maxing Strafe until level 96. Lole. This is because my focus was to get Hawk up quickly to a level usable in Goby parties (currently paused at 16). But it could have easily converted into a more conventional max Strafe/6 Puppet/low AR build by mid-8x, and still used early 11 AR to skip any hell levels around mid 7x-early 8x.

* Any party at Gobies listed in this data consisted of traveling with my party member and helping attack things, since my Hawk wasn't adequate to split yet. I just kept data for these parties for the hell of it; a typical Ranger probably won't have a HS Mule and high level friends willing to let them follow them around Gobies. Regardless, Black Squid solo rates remain solid during these levels as well.

* My damage range is probably higher than many Rangers would have had at similar levels; I earnestly don't know, the exp/hour thread seems woefully outdated. While this means the percent/hour of someone with worse gear than mine would probably be lower, I see no reason that their results shouldn't be proportionally the same.

* I'm currently level 97 and still have yet to make under 15% per hour soloing on a build that maxed Strafe at level 96. Also lole. This surprises me, for all the horror stories I read about what I'd endure for not maxing Strafe immediately.

* This 11 AR, 20 Strafe, Pirate/Gryphon/Squid/Goby build was and continues to be every flavor of awesome. I would personally recommend it for anybody who isn't flat broke, as the only real downside is the pot cost during Pirates, but even a single nice Scarab or Kandine covers this pretty nicely. I suggest the Pizza.


If you actually read all this: .

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FAQ
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(I'll get something in here about Gryphon training someday, sigh)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowmen
Why is your recommended build order different from your own build order?

The posted data is all based on the 11 Rain-first build order I chose to use, but because there was no detailed data for a Rain-first build at the Gryphons or Pirates maps, I could only make my build the way I guessed would work best. I was afraid to add more to Rain than I had to, as many veteran Bowmen agreed that any sort of Rain-first build was likely to fail. Since then, other players have tested and I've mathematically projected that a level 21 Rain-first build is faster than the 11 Rain-first build I used.

As for level 1 Inferno, I feel that it is optional. If you find yourself badly wanting a way to attract distant mobs more quickly (irritating hovering Gryphon clusters, Pirates mobs that are out of Rain range), drop a point into Inferno; if you can do without it, you're just one point further along on your other skills instead.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowmen
Hey, you cheating bastard! You used a Holy Symbol mule! What if I don't have a HS mule?

You don't need one. Even though I did use my HS mule for every party I trained in, I also specifically took the time to record soloing rates without any HS on, specifically so that I would have data to report here that other people could rely on. Anything labeled (solo) was timed without a party, without Holy Symbol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowmen
How do I train at Pirates?

Go to Red Nose Pirate Den 2, and just jumpshoot Rain back and forth across the middle deck, pausing once you've got six targets. Occasionally climb to the middle of the center sail so that you can Rain the top-leftmost ledge's Pirates to death. Strafe sees almost no use at Pirates, due to the constant mobbing, but can be useful to cut down the occasional stray or sole-surviving Captain's HP once in a while. You should probably make a looting run along the bottom floor once in a while in order to get your loot, as well.

If you ever find yourself without much spawn around you, Inferno makes a useful (but optional) lure; just fire it off quickly once to either side. Inferno is especially useful to lure the top-left enemies toward the center sail. If you don't have any Inferno, Arrow Bomb isn't a bad choice either; the damage is good, but the stun limits its usefulness for luring.

You're going to take a lot of upper 2xx - lower 3xx damage hits here. I'm not sure why people are so afraid to do this, but eager to go stand on a pile of Dark Golems over at FoG. While some people suggest sweeping out right across the main deck, then back left to the leftmost sail (which is a safe sniping point) in order to save on pots, I disagree with this. While it will save you a few pots, it's unlikely to be very many seeing as you'll still spend a large portion of your time out on the main deck luring. More impoortantly, your mobs will be smaller and your exp/hour will take a large hit, because you won't tag as many Pirates, making your mobs smaller and less frequent.

Pot cost is the biggest drawback to training here, but Blue/Green Scarabs, Kandines, and a handful of other nice marketable or high NPC value drops offset the cost nicely. Personally, I made profit, but your mileage may vary. I suggest using NLC's Supereme Pizzas to offset your expenses here; 1000 mesos for 900HP and 600MP make them the most efficient non-percentage pot in GMS right now, and you will find plenty of opportunities to take full advantage of both the HP and MP they provide.

Re: Pirate profits, posted by jackthegreat: "Just as a tip, but I would add in that pirates are VERY profitable and drop A LOT of mesos. At 83 right now, I make 1 mill pure meso drop/25ish % not including drops (which add an extra 500ishk), all for the pot cost of around 250k (200 pizzas, 25-30 barbarian elixirs). Perhaps there could be some mention of this within your in depth data as many people at that level, when training are VERY concerned with mesos and how much they lose/gain while getting "fast" exp. When I was unfunded at 8x, I would flinch everytime I lost 300-400k per pot run at death teddies in comparison to making around 1.5-2 mill/pot run here."

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bowmen
Do I need a pet to train at Gryphons? What about Pirates? Black Squids?

For Gryphons, you really don't need a pet; most of the drops will either fall off cliffs or land in places your pet can't maneuver to anyway. The bigger drawback to not having a pet at Gryphons is that you won't have the extra Speed a scrolled pet equip can provide, and Gryphons involve a large amount of horizontal travel between teleporters.

For Pirates, a pet is strongly suggested. It takes no time at all to blanket the ship in drops, and the nonstop spawn means that without a pet to loot for you, you have to choose between gutting your exp rate by trying to loot it manually, or incurring heavier pot costs and ignoring your drops. Also, with no pet, you're probably more likely to miss one of the valuable Pirate drops (ie Blue Scarab) that gets buried alongside the other etc and mesos.

For Black Squids, a pet is really unnecessary. You're mostly killing strong single targets here, so there's a lot less looting to do, and your Speed is less important than at the other two locations because the map is vertical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Snipers
Would this build work for my Sniper using Eruption?

I don't know the intricacies of a Sniper's build order as well as I do a Ranger's, but I don't see any reason a Sniper couldn't do this very same build and get the exact same results. Just switch out the 1 Inferno for 1 Blizzard (taking it as early or as late as you need, but I doubt you'll want Blizzard either at Gryphons or Pirates, so it should probably be right before leaving Pirates).

Retalion
2008-07-02, 04:27 PM
lol Colum, glad to see this moved over as well.

The table needs work though =T

Im currently reading Vampire Knight manga but when Im done I'll give this a full readover (well, Ive probably read it before) and perhaps throw some ideas for improvements and whatnot.

wobbufet
2008-07-02, 04:30 PM
lol Colum, glad to see this moved over as well.

The table needs work though =T

Im currently reading Vampire Knight manga but when Im done I'll give this a full readover (well, Ive probably read it before) and perhaps throw some ideas for improvements and whatnot.

Yeah lol, maybe a spoiler with all data in it? I guess that should do the trick.

Anyoneisgod
2008-07-02, 06:17 PM
ill reorganize the Data later. jack i would appreciate the read over to see if there is anything new to add.

Anyoneisgod
2008-07-03, 06:32 PM
Table fixed,please ignore double post.

Luscent
2008-07-03, 07:32 PM
It looks much cleaner now. This guide has been extremely helpful to me even if I am a Sniper with AE over AR.

Anyoneisgod
2008-07-03, 07:35 PM
Credit Goes to Treasurecat/Cactrot. man i miss him.

Kevin
2008-07-05, 12:10 PM
I'm actually really curious on his Gryphon methods since I could only pull off 15% an hour at level 74 solo even though I knew the map pretty well. Maybe I was walking too much.

Luscent
2008-07-06, 08:10 AM
I'm actually really curious on his Gryphon methods since I could only pull off 15% an hour at level 74 solo even though I knew the map pretty well. Maybe I was walking too much.

I actually skipped Gryphon's and brought myself straight on over to Pirates with 4 Eruption. I was getting around 22% an hour, but the pot usage was extremely high. Now with 21 Eruption, and a zhelm the pot usage is extremely minimal and the profit is amazing.

Salguod
2008-07-06, 01:33 PM
I actually skipped Gryphon's and brought myself straight on over to Pirates with 4 Eruption. I was getting around 22% an hour, but the pot usage was extremely high. Now with 21 Eruption, and a zhelm the pot usage is extremely minimal and the profit is amazing.

I basically skipped Gryphons as well. Tried it but the % per hour increase (as opposed to zombies, which is where I went for the most part) wasn't really enough for me to endure the insanity of the map. I don't know about others, but training in that map stressed me out, so I don't recommend it. Pirates are definitely worth going early, although I didn't as good exp as Luscent.

I went the 21 rain build and from my personal experience, I would make the claim that:
21 Rain first = better money; but not much else. You do have the edge for a few levels in exp when 11 rain archers stop adding rain, but another ranger I saw there often, who went the 11 rain build, had barely worse % per hour than I had, while my 8x rates dropped severely when I stopped adding rain. Also, a higher strafe gives them access to alternative training spots that could be a refreshing experience.

Pirates are indeed a gold mine, and I'd add the mithril and steel ore drops, and mana elixirs, as another source of income, as they sell fast and easily fund your pots. You'd get tons of money drops as well, and they are around 300~400 each. A Zhelm is highly recommended for training at pirates and depending on how long you're there, you should make back what you spent on a zhelm easily from the savings.

Luscent
2008-07-06, 02:32 PM
After working out all my potion costs and everything, just from pure meso not counting any drops or anything I make around 1.6 mil an hour at Pirates. This was dramatically increased due to my zhelm and the increased defense it adds. Add in the occasional Scarab, drops, steel ores, and elixirs and I've probably made close to ~20 mil. I went 21 AE first and I don't regret it at all.

Kevin
2008-07-06, 05:29 PM
I did actually skip Gryphons as well. I went to Pirates with level 1 Rain during the 2x event and timed around 5.8-5.9% per 10 minutes which wasn't bad at all. I was just curious how Cactrot managed to get a higher exp gain at Gryphons.

I'm doing 11 AR then Strafe. Works for me since there's something about Pirates I that doesn't appeal to me. Maybe I don't getting tossed around a lot.

blackerlp
2008-07-10, 01:21 AM
I have a question? I have 15 strafe, 11 AR, 1 USELESS FLAMING ARROW ATTACK, and 2 Puppet.
Im gonna continue to get puppet to 6, so by 83 ill be at 6 puppet.
The question that I need answered is, should i go back to strafe and max it after that or should i max AR? I'm currently training at ws which is great, but I'm growing bored of it. So with my question in mind, should I proceed to max strafe and go to newties and/or squids, or should I max AR staying at ws and then go to gobies.
Will 15 strafe and 6 puppet be enough to handle bone fish?
Serious answers containing common sense/hard facts are appreciated.
:cool:

Luscent
2008-07-10, 07:34 AM
I have a question? I have 15 strafe, 11 AR, 1 USELESS FLAMING ARROW ATTACK, and 2 Puppet.
Im gonna continue to get puppet to 6, so by 83 ill be at 6 puppet.
The question that I need answered is, should i go back to strafe and max it after that or should i max AR? I'm currently training at ws which is great, but I'm growing bored of it. So with my question in mind, should I proceed to max strafe and go to newties and/or squids, or should I max AR staying at ws and then go to gobies.
Will 15 strafe and 6 puppet be enough to handle bone fish?
Serious answers containing common sense/hard facts are appreciated.
:cool:

Personally I'd get your Strafe to 21 right after Puppet. What %/hour are you getting at WS? After you get 21 Strafe I'd pump points into AR to get it to 21 so you can effectively Gobi. I wouldn't go to Newts early but that's just because you'll be there for a long ass time any way.

After that you might want to increase Puppet to 9, max AR, max Strafe and then work on Hawk.

blackerlp
2008-07-10, 02:24 PM
WS is decent of course, with better equips it might speed up a little from around the 15%ish it is now.Luscent ty, for response, but you really kinda didnt answer the important part of the question. If i can handle bonefish w/ 15 strafe ( house goes down quick enough for me at squids) why shouldnt i move back to rasing ar . gobies are great money/exp soyeah. I kinda need a more in depth answer other then "just do this build".

Retalion
2008-07-10, 07:49 PM
Thing with bone fish is this: They dont get aggro'd very easily so at times they can become annoying. Its not a matter of if your puppet will last, its a matter of if you can get it to follow your puppet.

Looking at your equips there are tonnes of things you can upgrade, enough that you should probably go gobies (as squids are decent money and newties will eat up your money like no tomorrow), meaning I'd get rain to 21 if I were you.

Im not sure if you've heard of it, but if you dont want to deal with bone fish, you can just let them build up on the ledge above bottom and just rotate killing the houses. It might be a bit slower but it'll save pots and stuff (and when you can barely find spawn, then just arrow bomb the whole mob).

blackerlp
2008-07-11, 11:37 AM
wel as for equips, i WONT wear pac, wgs, facestompers, etc. Im insane i know.
I dont play this game to make pink numbers appear, i play to talk to my friends and relax, umm my equips are listed in the wtb thread if u didnt see that.
anywho, retalion, ty, i thought gobies would be the place to go, and pumping rain would allow me to stay at ws for their great drops.Thank you for a really good answer

Allen
2008-07-11, 12:37 PM
Been looking at this table really carefully. Has anyone experimented with parking lot in showa and how it contribues to this table?